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Old English Language / Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Last post by David on Today at 10:36:29 AM »
Bowerthane, I was thinking that there was not much interest.
Yes I missed ūs out. I was wondering whether it should come before lædede of after hē.
Ætstandan is fine. I was thinking of becoming still rather than being still. I have not seen stoppan but I think that stoppian is transitive, meaning to plug.
I think that you might be right about swā, þā hwīle þe is right but it would be nice if we could get away with just hwīle.

For your (heart) beat could you use clæppan, cloccettan or slecgettan.
I do not like using wolde for would. It feels 11th century. For me would triggers the subjunctive.
For “just as” you can have swā or efne swā.
For “can’t forget” you seem to be interpreting as a choice whereas I didn’t.
Anglo-Saxon Discussion / Re: Downton Meadhall
« Last post by Bowerthane on August 21, 2017, 03:36:24 PM »
Oh cripes...
Old English Language / Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Last post by Bowerthane on August 21, 2017, 03:29:01 PM »

I hope you know how much I enjoy and appreciate this, David.

Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra! I’m not getting at in þǣm weġe but I wonder whether you think wiþ weġe would be more characteristic of the Old English?

Forþӯ lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ.  Surely that should be: Forþӯ ūs lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ?

Se sōncræft endede and iċ ġestedigod,  Have you come across ætstandan for ‘stood still’ ( as well as ‘halt’)?  I find it more economical.  That Black Rider ætstód in Woody End, as Frodo ætstód upon Cerin Amroþ, in my translations from The Lord of the Rings.  Also, if you are as picky as I about sticking to the wordsmith’s choice of expression if at all possible, but stoppan does exist as a verb, seemingly.

Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan.  Ah, can you actually use swá in this ‘temporal’ sense ( as I’ve developed the habit of calling it) in Old English?  As you may have begun to suspect, swá has given me a lot of trouble.  Trouble that began many years ago when I jauntily set about translating Waltzing Matilda into Old English only to convince myself that the line, “And he sang as he sat as he waited while his billy boiled” had to go, if memory serves And hé sang þá hwíle þe hé sæt þá hwíle þe hé bát þá hwíle þe his bili séaþ

Which you could say kills the hit.   

Yet I am aware only of certain uses of hwíle on its own ( declined thus, as an adverb) as an alternative to modern-day ‘temporal as’.  One that may actually be appropriate as Þā, lā, hwìle ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sedan as I’ve used it like this twice in my excerpts from The Lord of the Rings but which are not yet fit to be seen, otherwise. 

Otherwise this was why the line: “Do you like what you doth see...?” said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within” had to be “Lícaþ þé hwæt þú siehst...?” sæġde þæt  forspennende ælf-mæġden þá hwíle þe héo fræfele ġetwǽmde þá fyldas hiere pælle tó onhlídanne þá æppledu wuldrum and heolstrig innan and why “Her tiny, pink toes caressed the luxuriant fur of his instep while Frito’s nose sought the warmth of her precious elf-navel” had to be Hiere minan tán and rósġan óleccede þæt  ġeþúfede flíes him fótwelme þá hwíle þe Fritos nosu sóhte þá wearmnesse hiere deórwyrþum ælf-nafelan in my naughty, but hopefully nice attempt upon the Alfred Prize.

So I’d love to be wrong here.  Yet having re-checked and pored through textbooks, samples etc. looking for exemplars and anything else that seems relevant on at least three separate occasions, I fear I am not.  Can Linden shed any light on this, I wonder?

Incidentally, I have reminded myself that you can have ‘so that’ in much the same instrumental sense as in  Modern English, as in hé wæs swìþe fæger swá þæt hé wæs ġeháten Leohtberend.

Oh, and there’s an Old English idiom nú hwíle which covers much the same semantic ground as our ‘just now’ or ‘at the moment’.  Can’t remember where I found it nú hwíle, but I did make sure about it because then, as , I don’t mind getting chuffed as hell at fitting nú hwíle into the crisis moment in my translation of the Sucker Punch script. 

The film reaches its climax when at last the villain, Blue Jones, foils the heroine, Babydoll’s escape attempt.  Babydoll tries to resist as Blue begins to assault her physically, ready to do so sexually.  “Huh, is that it?  Is that all you got? Come here!  Come out,” Blue demands as he slaps Babydoll about. “Did you lose your fight, huh?”  Yet Babydoll clings to enough nerve to fumble for her hidden knife, breathing, “No. I just found it...” before she stabs Blue. 

So now it goes:

   [ Súcelíca séceþ feohtan]
Blue: Éa, is þæt hit?  Wes eall þé hafa swá?  Cume hér!  Cume forþ.  Losedest þú þín feoht? He?
Babydoll:  Ná.  Iċ nú hwíle  fand hit. 
   [ Héo sticaþ Hǽwe]

Þǣr wæter guton and æppleltrēow  wēoxon.  There’s a second excrescent L in that æppleltrēow but I can suggest wæstmtréow for ‘fruit-trees’ if you don’t mind getting creative.  I’m not aware of a *wæstmtréow in original Old English, but wæstm is definitely used in appropriate senses. 

Amongst others.  It’s a surprisingly versatile word, I find.

And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,.  Eek, I looked into this too.  So far as I can tell the Old English verb béatan meant little more than physically ‘beat; clash together; tramp, tread on’ as with hammers, cymbals, feet etc.  I could find no instance of it referring to anything like a heartbeat in our period.  I’ve come across other senses that modern ‘beat’ doesn’t fit too, such as a musical beat, but I had to sort this one out for the last line of the third verse that Tom Bombadil breaks out into, in the chapter In the House of Tom Bombadil.  Referring to Goldberry, he chants “Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!”  At the moment I have this as Swéte wæs  hiere  sang þá,  and hiere heorte  wæs slecgettende! because sléan, believe it or not, the word that put the ‘sledge-’ into ‘sledgehammer’, does seem to bear the requisite shade of meaning.

Incidentally, I’ve found that the Old English word for ‘barrow’, beorg is not definitive enough to be sure to hit the meaning ‘grave mound’ actually in Old English.  In my rendition of In the House of Tom Bombadil, where it says of the four hobbits “They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills” etc, it has to be Híe híerdon  ymb  þǽm Micel Morþcrundlas, and þǽm gréne hlæwum, and þá stánhringas  ofer  þǽre dúnum etc. and, near the top of the next paragraph, “Even in the Shire the rumour of the Barrow-wights of the Barrow-downs beyond the Forest had been heard” is taking shape as Efne on þǽre Scíre se hlísa þǽm  Morþcrundel-wihtum þǽm  Morþcrundel-dúnum beġeondan þǽm Wealda ǽrlice wæs ġehierede for fear I could just be talking to myself about the hill-things of the Hill-hills, if not.

Better answers on a méting-ġewrit by all means, because that’s from my Sucker Punch translation, where Sweet Pea says, “Well, send me a postcard from paradise” or Wel, send mé of Folcwange  méting-ġewrit.

hē cwæðe.  Why not hē wolde cweðan for “he was used to say”?  Wasn’t wolde commonly used to express habitual action?  If I were a suspicious person, David, I’d think you planted that one to keep us on our toes!

And swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed. Unless Linden knows better, I think you can have And efne swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed to hit the same note as modern ‘just as’, here.

Iċ ne mæġ forġietan þe.  I wonder what your ( or anyone’s) opinion was of using the subjunctive in the negative for constructions such as this?  Say Nǽfre forġiete iċ þe etc.?  I feel it’s subtly more elegant, looks more Old Englishy and, when translating modern ‘can’t’ into Old English, allows for the fact that many users of Modern English don’t know or don’t care about the difference between ‘cannot’ and ‘may not’, or commonly mean one by the other.

But that’s just how I feel about it...

The moral right of the author to identify Wing Commander Guy Gibson’s dog as Nigger has been asserted.

News & Events / Re: Talking Tolkien on BBC Radio 4 at eight o'clock TODAY.
« Last post by Bowerthane on August 21, 2017, 03:22:22 PM »
Did anyone else hear Tolkien in Love by Sean Grundy on BBC Radio 4 last Saturday, at half past two?  The excerpts from the young Ron Tolkien’s love-letters to Edith Bratt, the original Lúthien, sounded genuine.

Can anyone can say whether they were?

Old English Language / Re: Are in Old English
« Last post by David on August 20, 2017, 08:19:38 PM »
Well done you have found one Anglo-Saxon who can't spell one word for toffees.

Other Anglo Saxons seem to do much better with other words.

I was talking about "are" and "Beowulf".

General Discussion / AS Byzantine gold coin pendant
« Last post by Blackdragon on August 20, 2017, 01:27:15 PM »
AS 6th century pendant made from gold byzantine coin found in Norfolk
Old English Language / Re: Are in Old English
« Last post by peter horn on August 20, 2017, 10:00:42 AM »
with regard to the lack consistency in spelling, not only by the Anglo-Saxon scribes but by everyone, including Shakespeare,
prior to the appearance of dictionaries, the most amusing example is by the Anglo-Saxon scribe who compiled the Lacnunga.
He spells Celandine as follows:
cyleenigean...... and so on
I lost count of the number of variations in spelling
he couldn't spell for toffee!
General Discussion / Re: Christmas Cards
« Last post by David on August 18, 2017, 10:42:24 AM »
I have received a lot of photos from Eanflaed.

It would be nice to receive some sketches or paintings. For example a robin and some holly in the snow next to a thatched hut.
News & Events / Re: Battle of Stamford Bridge
« Last post by Phyllis on August 17, 2017, 06:58:03 PM »
I added it to the calendar which generates a post automatically.

Lest we forget :)
Old English Language / Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Last post by David on August 17, 2017, 09:02:23 AM »
Here is the whole of verse 14
Alas, alas for Hamelin!                                           Ēala, wā for Hameline!
 There came into many a burgher's pate                   Incōm on manig burgfolces heafod
 A text which says that heaven's gate                       Traht þe sæġþ þe heofones ġeat
 Opes to the rich at as easy rate                              Onhlīde for weliġa manna æt seftre mǣðe
 As the needle's eye takes a camel in!                      Swā nǣdle ēaġe āfēhð olfend!
 The mayor sent East, West, North and South,          Se Burgealdor sende Ēast , West, Norð and Sūð,
 To offer the Piper, by word of mouth.                      Þone Pīpere tō bewæġnanne, be worde mūðes.
 Wherever it was men's lot to find him,                    Swā hwǣr swā hit wæs mannes ġifeðe him findan,
 Silver and gold to his heart's content,                    Seolfer and gold oð his heortan fulhealdenre,
 If he'd only return the way he went,                      Ġif hē anā æthweorfe þæt fær þe hē ēode,
 And bring the children behind him.                        And brincð bearn æthindan him.
 But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavour,            Ac þā hīe onġeaton þe sēo hīgung forlēas,
 And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,             And se Pīpere and hopperas ā ēodon,
 They made a decree that lawyers never                 Hīe dōþ bebod þe lahwitan nǣfre
 Should think their records dated duly                    Scolde hycgan cranicas habban wǣr datārum
 If, after the day of the month and year,                 Ġif, æfter þǣm dæġe mōnaþ and ġēares,
 These words did not as well appear,                      Þās word ne onӯwedon efenwel,
 “And so long after what happened here                 “And swā lange siððan þe ġelamp hēr
 On the Twenty-second of July,                              On Æterra Līða twēġen and twentiġ,
 Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''                      þrēotiene hundred and siex and hundseofontiġ”
 And the better in memory to fix                           And is betera fæstnian in ġemynd
 The place of the children's last retreat,                 Þone stede þara bearna endemestan smygeles,
 They called it, the Pied Piper's Street --                Hīe hēhton hine, þæs Fāgan Pīperes Strǣt --
 Where any one playing on pipe or tabor,               Þær ġehwā þe plegaþ pīpan oððe tunnebotm,             
 Was sure for the future to lose his labour.             Bēo ġewiss for þǣre forþġesceafte forlēossan his wyrcunge.
 Nor suffered they hostelry or tavern                     Ne man hīe ġesiehþ mid inne ne wīnhūse
 To shock with mirth a street so solemn;                Tawian mid myrgðe strǣt swā dēopum;
 But opposite the place of the cavern                     Ac wiþ þǣm stede þæs holes
 They wrote the story on a column,                       Hīe grafaþ þæt spell on columnan,
 And on the great church-window painted              And mētton on þǣre miclan ċirican ēaġþӯrle.
 The same, to make the world acquainted              Ilca, cӯðan tō worulde
 How their children were stolen away,                    Hū wǣron bestolen hīera bearn,
 And there it stands to this very day.                     And hē stant oð þisne  dæġ
 And I must not omit to say                                  And iċ ne sceal oferhebban cweðan
 That in Transylvania there's a tribe                       Þe in Transyvania is ġeþēode
 Of alien people who ascribe                                 Elelendisces folces þe cnōdeþ
 The outlandish ways and dress.                            Þā ūtlendiscan wīsan and wǣda.
 On which their neighbours lay such stress,            Þe on hiera nēahġebūras lecgaþ þylc weorþ,
 To their fathers and mothers having risen             Tō hiera fædrum and mōdrum hæfen ġeastigen
 Out of some subterraneous prison                        Of sum under foldan cwearterne
 Into which they were trepanned                           Þe in hīe wǣron ġetrept
 Long time ago in a mighty band                           Ġefyrn on mægenfolce
 Out of Hamelin town in Brunswick land,                Of Hamelin burge in EaldSeaxlande,
 But how or why, they don't understand.                Ac hū oððe forhwon, hīe ne onġiett.
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