Welcome to the discussion forum of Ða Engliscan Gesiðas for all matters relating to the history, language and culture of Anglo-Saxon England. I hope it will provide a useful source of information, stimulate research, and be of real help. Ða Engliscan Gesiðas (The English Companions) maintains a strictly neutral line on all modern and current political and religious matters and it does not follow any particular interpretation of history. Transgression of this Rule will not be tolerated. Any posts which are perceived as breaking this Rule will be deleted with immediate effect without explanation.

Author Topic: Just who is being truly offensive here?  (Read 1106 times)

Linden

  • Moderator
  • Hlaford
  • *****
  • Posts: 254
  • Essex scirgerefa
    • View Profile
Just who is being truly offensive here?
« on: April 16, 2012, 07:15:53 PM »
" ..............................Companies like First Great Western are so far from making that kind of contribution to the transport network that they can't even understand how offensive it is to make the comparison. It's like an illiterate Anglo-Saxon chieftain using a derelict Roman temple as a shelter for shitting and then crowning himself emperor in honour of the achievement.
.........................................."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/15/david-mitchell-royal-mail-stamps?newsfeed=true

Perhaps the Guardian should be informed that this is - itself - offensive to those of Anglo-Saxon ancestry.  Besides which, if the Anglo-Saxon was a 'chieftain', then he was unlikely to have been illiterate and, judging by such poems as 'The Ruin' would have probably had some respect for an ancient building and place of worship unlike many people today.
Cræft biþ betere ðonne æhta

Iohannes

  • gesith
  • **
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 09:55:40 AM »
Prejudice and ignorance are amongst the worst evils of the world.

Linden

  • Moderator
  • Hlaford
  • *****
  • Posts: 254
  • Essex scirgerefa
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 05:04:39 PM »
What annoys me is that the 'Guardian' claims to be a newspaper written by and for the  reasonably well-educated, thinking person.  If it had been in one of the papers generally considered to form part of our loathsome 'gutter press', I would not have deemed it worthy of comment. 

But Guardian contributors could have been assumed to know better than to maintain such an outdated and inaccurate image of 'Dark Age' England. Even if the writer of the article knows so very little about English history, I find it surprising and disappointing that the editor of this newspaper section did not pick up the error.
Cræft biþ betere ðonne æhta

harryamphlett

  • ceorl
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 06:14:52 PM »
What annoys me is that the 'Guardian' claims to be a newspaper written by and for the  reasonably well-educated, thinking person.

LOL Linden. Read the Comment is Free sections, especially the daily Eurozone Crisis Live blog and you'll get a different impression about both Guardian readers and the Guardian journalists.

Andreas

  • ceorl
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 08:31:03 PM »
Clearly the work of Normans!
Reunite Pangea!

Aescwulf

  • ceorl
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 01:58:39 PM »
The rails are annoying its like here in essex they change company every six months and the price for using vending machines in Colchester station is enough to give a healthy person a heart attack 1pound for a mars bar!

Housecarl

  • ceorl
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 05:06:04 PM »
If you had replaced the words Anglo Saxon with African the earth would have caved in, but hey, didnt you know, its OK to abuse the English because they are not represented by any ethnic or cultural specific special interest groups, just ask the girls of Rochdale.
In the manual for the English Companions its states that the organisation was set up in 1966 because of the anger felt by some at the English 'celebration' of the Norman victory. The more I read new publications of the group the more I am aware that there is a trend towards shying away from any controversy or political debate.(This was surely not the intention of the founders?) This I can understand in some ways, but I am growing more and more concerned that there are NO credible organisations prepared to stand up to the current process of erasing English identity and culture from the history of these Islands. Just ask any Rochdale (or anywhere else) school child about how England became England, it has no place in the so called National curriculum and is seldom mentioned in any school history books.
Surely its a debate that we are capable of and should be having without offending anyone?

Horsa

  • thegn
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 04:24:49 PM »
it has no place in the so called National curriculum and is seldom mentioned in any school history books.

Though I agree with the sentiment in your post - cultural or racial groups shouldn't be depicted as images of stupidity and vulgarity - the above is not quite true. The topic 'The Anglo-Saxons' is in the NC that is studied in year 3. I was a year 1 / 2 teacher, but tried to organise a visit from Regia Anglorum for the year 3 teachers. Regia never got back to me, and I was busy with WWI with my students. The Anglo Saxons, however, is just one among a number of topics and does not get any special emphasis. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that in the school I worked it was taught every other year, so half the students didn't get to learn about pre-conquest England.
Hƿílum ƿord be ƿorde, hƿílum andgit of andgiete.

Housecarl

  • ceorl
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 05:23:10 PM »
Horsa,, I am a Forest School Leader and work closely with children from 3-13 years old. I help out with artifacts and re-enactment in some of the history classes. True, the Anglo Saxons are 'available' to be covered in one of the optional units, and I have seen it used occasionally, but because it is seen as remote and strange, not many teachers take it up as an option. Hardly any of them understand its significance themselves, and far prefer teaching about Vikings. My own children, started with Romans, then Egyptians, then ww2, then Britain since 1948. If it was not for my own interest they would have never heard from any source any information of any kind about how England became England and why we speak as we do.
I am a member of the local Royal Society of St George (because there is not a Royal society of St Edmund yet) and you know, speaking with its mostly elderly membership, none of them are really aware of Englands origins either. Apathy? Ignorance? lack of teaching?  English identity seems to be shrouded in all of these things. I would love the Gesidas to be champions of the debate.

peter horn

  • Administrator
  • Hlaford
  • *****
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 07:09:16 PM »
The English Companions can do only what individual members are preparded to do and what the membership as a whole will support.
Everything the society does is due to a handful of individuals who are willing to spend a good part of their time to the various duties required to keep the society going. Members are not lining up to join the Witan, for example. We need  people to organise local events. we need a publicity officer. etc etc. We need many more members attending the events we do organise. we need more members on the gegaderung. The number of members on  the gegaderung is very small (about 50 at last count) and only about a dozen of those actually post with any degree of regularity.
The sucess of the Companions in promoting the AS period depends entirely upon more members coming forward to actually do something.

One important thing we must remember is that the Society does not exist to promote Englishness, however desirable that may be. The `companions is concerned with promoting the AS period as detailed on the front page of the main website.
Peter
Ic ∂ær ær wæs
Ic ∂æt ær dyde

Horsa

  • thegn
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 05:24:30 PM »
Apathy? Ignorance? lack of teaching?

Well, I think it's a feedback loop. It's like a bug in the culture. If people don't know about the period, they can't pass on the knowledge. Ignorance gets passed down. If they don't know about it they can't get interested in it and make films, cartoons, etc. thus creating more interest in the period. I'm also interested in Sumerian history and lit (well, Gilgamesh), but that's even less well known (if possible) than pre-conquest England.

A lot of people on here aren't terribly fond of Bernard Cornwell's books and Heaney's 'translation' of Beowulf, but they caused pre-conquest England, it's history and lit to register in the cultural consciousness.

When I heard the year 3s in my school were going to do the Anglo-saxons, I went and had a chat with them. They were all much less than enthusiastic about teaching the Anglo-Saxons only because they didn't know anything about the era themselves. After chatting with them, they felt a lot better. I communicated some information about the period, but I mostly communicated enthusiasm.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 05:32:26 PM by Horsa »
Hƿílum ƿord be ƿorde, hƿílum andgit of andgiete.

John Nicholas Cross

  • gesith
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 11:41:09 AM »
Yes Horsa,  I'm one of those who don't think much of Bernard Cornwell's novels, set in the time of King Aelfred but I do wholeheartedly agree, that they have helped to popularised the period.   John N. Cross.

Jayson

  • thegn
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Knowledge is of no use unless it is passed on...
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 01:09:41 AM »
--I was seven when I had my first personal taste of Englisc.   We'd been singing the carol 'Here we go a wassailing...' and I asked my teacher what the word meant.   Luckily, she knew and passed on the information.   OK, we'd done King Alfred, etc. in our history lessons the same year (in those days you  started at Stonehenge and moved forward bit by bit), but this was the first time the period actually meant anything to me.   So we do need teachers who know the period and know what they are talking about.
Wessex Woman

Horsa

  • thegn
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
Re: Just who is being truly offensive here?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 08:36:11 PM »
So we do need teachers who know the period and know what they are talking about.

I would agree with you. Of course we want teachers who know what they're talking about. I personally would like everyone to know what they're talking about. If they don't know a subject, they should shut up and listen... and take notes... and verify what they had heard via other sources... and feedback - the dialectic.

Unfortunately in this day and age of the veneration of pap and ersatz culture, what with X Factor, Dancing with the Stars, Celebrity Makeover Cookery Bachelor Love Match on an Island show, fewer and fewer interesting things are discussed and those not to any interesting depth. We intellectuals are a small and increasingly 'persecuted' group.

In terms of primary school teachers and to a lesser extent, secondary school teachers, I feel I have to say something. This was, by far, the most difficult job I have ever had with the longest hours. I must also say that everyone with whom I came into contact in the profession was a dedicated professional - dedicated to delivering the highest quality teaching and to improving their craft. This is not to say that primary school teachers are wonderful people. I was lucky, I worked in a school with a very supportive culture. I had friends and colleagues who worked in schools which seemed to have a very toxic work environment, and a significant minority of teachers seemed to be very petty, almost childish, which seemed contradictory seeing as they were such competent professionals. I remember discussing this with a more experienced colleague. I believed that such people were attracted to the profession, whereas she believed that the number of petty people was not significantly higher in teaching than in other areas, and that there is something about working with children 7 hours a day which can subtly affect your dealings with adults.

Anyway, primary school teachers teach all subjects. The subject knowledge requirements are a particular challenge. The primary school teacher is required to be something of a polymath, a renaissance man (if you pardon the sexist expression. I mean 'man' in the OE sense). Although we'd all passed our subject knowledge requirements, different teachers had different interests, strengths and weaknesses. My weakness were science, computers and math, and paradoxically these ended up being my strongest teaching subjects, presumably because I focussed on them, and I was aware of the difficulties in learning them.

The year 3 teachers in my school, had not been exposed to the Anglo-saxon period, and thus were not interested in it. It was another increase in their workload. Luckily, I sat in on their meeting and talked about the interesting role of the Godwisons, Harold's fight with Hardrada and his heroic march south, the battle of Hastings (two very different styles of warfare coming together), Cnut's union of Scandinavia and England, the role of the witan, and finally alliterative poetry. I was speaking off the top of my head. I'm more interested in the language and prosody of Anglo-Saxon England than I am of the history, but as I said before, my enthusiasm was palpable.

At the end, the weary faces had raised eyebrows as if to say "this stuff is more interesting than I thought". And I think that that strikes at the heart of this organisation and its purpose. We can lament lack of knowledge of the period all we want. In fact, I lament the lack of all kinds of knowledge and thinking skills. But lamentation gets us very little. As was said in a previous thread, what we should do is know our stuff and communicate that knowledge when called upon to do so.

There are a few of us writing novels set in the period and some of us posting videos on YouTube. Those of us in Anglecynn and Regia, just be aware that the Anglo-Saxons is a year 3 history option and cold calling schools offering services might be an idea - get some income, give the teachers a break and create some interest and knowledge in the period among staff and students alike.
Hƿílum ƿord be ƿorde, hƿílum andgit of andgiete.