Gegaderung

Gegaderung => Old English Language => Topic started by: Phyllis on May 18, 2015, 02:33:44 PM

Title: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on May 18, 2015, 02:33:44 PM
Hello everyone!

I wonder if anybody would be willing to help me out? I am hoping to translate a children's story into englisc to use at future events where our local gesithas have a presence. I thought it would be nice to translate "Peace at last" by Jill Murphy because it is simple and repetitive with lots of sound effects so everyone should be able to follow it :) My thoughts are to use word choices as similar to new english as possible. It's not going to be Beowulf!

I have made a start on it today and being a complete novice it is a bit of a challenge. I am happy to keep working on it yet but if someone was willing to give it a look over once I have done more I would really appreciate it. It feels a bit long for posting up here...although I suppose I could do it in chunks if people don't mind that?

Any help appreciated!

Phyllis


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on May 18, 2015, 05:18:22 PM

Phyllis

It sounds ambitious but give it a try. I will try to help if I am able and can find the time. Hopefully others will too. Ask us about your problems and give us chunks to advise on.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: culfer on May 21, 2015, 10:35:36 AM
I am still in the early stages of learning Old English, and I would be very greatful if you did post some or all of it on here just as an exercise for me!! Haha
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on May 21, 2015, 02:20:15 PM
I'll be glad to help if I can.  But my Old English is imperfect and my attempts to improve it have to be filched from other commitments.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on May 25, 2015, 10:42:43 AM
Hello again!

Thanks to all for offers of help - together we will get there I'm sure :)

Just a couple of notes before we begin. My posts may be a bit random as I am often away for work, so excuse me if I don't reply quickly to you. I am not ignoring you, but just caught up in the rest of my life.

And a note for the text: there are lots of sound effects in the story, so where these come in I will write them in capitals and leave them in Modern English as they really just represent a noise. The example in this first bit is "SNORE".

Also I am trying to use word choices most similar to Modern English where possible so that listeners have a better chance of following along.

I am struggling with verb declesions in particular so please tell me when I get them wrong :)

So if you are all sitting comfortably, I'll begin...

First the Modern English:
The hour was late
Mr Bear was tired, Mrs Bear was tired and Baby Bear was tired. So they all went to bed.
Mrs Bear fell asleep. Mr Bear didn’t. Mrs Bear began to snore.
SNORE SNORE went Mrs Bear. “Oh no, I can’t stand this!” said Mr Bear. So he got up and went to sleep in Baby Bear’s room.

In Eald Englisc:
Hit wæs læt.
Fæder Bera wæs werig. Modor Bera wæs werig and Lytel Bera wæs werig. Swa eodon hie to reste.
Modor Bera onslæpde. Fæder Bera ne dyde. Modor Bera begann fnæran.
SNORE, SNORE  fnærde Modor Bera.
Nese, nese, me ne licaþ þisse! saegde Fæder Bera. Swa aras he and eode to reste in Lyteles Beras slæperne.

Coming up: Baby Bear pretends to be an aeroplane!

Ic þoncie eow ealle

Phyllis

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on May 25, 2015, 12:54:23 PM

Phyllis

This looks really good.
However I think that onslæpde should be onslep and beras should be beran.

Then you might consider lyteling bera for baby bear or fnæst fnæst for snore snore.
Oh no might be eala or eow or even eala nese.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on May 25, 2015, 02:51:07 PM

Re-reading this I am not happy with þisse. I wonder about leaving out this. If you do use it I feel that it is the subject and I would go for neuter (this thing). So I would try “Þis  me ne licaþ” or even “Hit me ne licaþ”.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Eanflaed on May 25, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
This is fascinating, Phyllis! Hope you will do this at Stamford Bridge. :) I know the story well - can't wait to see what you make of "aeroplane", "refridgerator" and "car" in Old English! ???
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on May 27, 2015, 10:51:31 AM
David - thank you so much! I would like to keep þis as it works well for reading aloud to small children, so will use what you suggest there. I like eala nese too, good rhythm - it's getting that emphasis for reading out loud :)

Eanflæd - yes, planning it for Stamford Bridge although I need to see what Bev thinks too!

Hoping to get part 2 up this weekend - I'm having loads of fun just trying it out, and while I do have plans for fridge, car and plane I will definitely welcome ideas too!

Wesan hal!

Phyllis
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: lawrence on May 27, 2015, 11:38:43 AM
Hi,

Do you know about the New Anglo Saxon Chronicle?  It's a chronicle of modern times written in Old English.  You may find some suggestions for modern items in AS

http://larashots.com/appleyard/nasc/nasc.htm

Cheers,

Lawrence
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: lawrence on May 27, 2015, 11:41:50 AM
Especially here:

http://larashots.com/appleyard/nasc/nascword.htm
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on May 27, 2015, 02:28:05 PM
There’s nothing wrong with eodon hie to reste that I can see, but if you wish to “use word choices most similar to Modern English... so that listeners have a better chance of following” than you can have þæt bedd for “the bed” neuter, spelt the same for accusative as for nominative, though it’s bedde  in the dative.  So I suppose you could more briefly have eodon híe bedde but, even if that is more correct or historically likely, I’d turn a blind eye to it and keep the for this purpose!


Also I’ve a suspicion that ‘onslæpde’ should be ‘ġeslæpen’ but my Old English is, as I say, imperfect.


Are these news to you ( www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk (http://www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/) and bosworth.ff.cuni.cz), Phyllis? ( Only ‘ware the adjectival declensions given by the former as the computer seems to bung more than one on the same stem).


By the way, I forgot to mention what a spiffingly good idea this is.  More than once I’ve wondered if some if people swallow many of the ignorant or corny misunderstandings about the Old English when they are young, for instance the idea that gutter language is all or mainly ‘Anglo-Saxon’.  If only we could get ‘em while they’re young win children’s hearts, we could nip a whole raft of nonsense in the bud.

I’m looking forward to the creative anachronisms, too!  One reason I find daft things to set myself as translation exercises is the fun of pulling your head about, trying to think how to say ‘stogie/ cigar’ and ‘hijacked’ ( from Sucker Punch) or ‘drawer’ and ‘corduroy’ ( from Dickens, maybe I’ll get away with Mamċestercláþ for the latter as ‘Manchester cloth’ was a Victorian synonym for ‘corduroy’) and never mind ‘polarised silicon’ and ‘protein  polysaccharides’ ( from Alien)...


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on May 28, 2015, 12:01:46 PM

“Ġeslǣpen” does not sound right to me. This is the past participle of “slǣpen” (to sleep). So I would read “Mōdor bera ġeslǣpen” as “Rested mother bear”.

I agree with Phyllis that onslǣpen better reflects to go to sleep. However I prefer the strong verb version “onslēp” to the weak verb version “onslǣpde”. I also feel that it sounds closer to the modern English.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on May 31, 2015, 02:14:53 PM
Thanks again everyone! I'm going to check out the link to larashots.com :)

I originally used "bedd(e)" but then thought "reste" also sounded OK out loud, which is how this is all going to work after all. Also, because I need to repeat the phrase "went to sleep in..." I ended up choosing "reste" as it specifically doesn't mean "bed". But I am happy either way to be honest.

Fortunately Mr Bear does not dabble in nuclear physics in this volume, so most of the words are not too awful to think up, although I have made wild guesses so will be thankful for your comments.  Basic language is another good reason to stick with children's stories, as well as the motivation of brainwashing them at an impressionable age :)

Without further ado, here is the next instalment! I am struggling in particular with "pretending to be...", aeroplane and clock.

Baby Bear was not asleep either. He was laying in bed pretending to be an aeroplane.
“NYAOW!” went Baby Bear. “NYAOW! NYAOW!”
“Oh no, I can’t stand this,” said Mr Bear. He got up and went to sleep in the living room.

“Tick tock tick tock cuckoo!” went the living room clock
“Oh no,” said Mr Bear, “I can’t stand this!” So he got up and went off to sleep in the kitchen.

Ealswa ne slep Lyteling Bera. He læg in bedde and licætte þæt he wære lyftscip.
“NYAOW!” cwæþ Lyteling Bera. “NYAOW! NYAOW!”
“Eala nese, þis me ne licaþ!” saegde Fæder Bera. Swa aras he and eode to reste in healle.

“TICK TOCK TICK TOCK CUCKOO!” clipode tidmæl in healle.
"Eala nese, þis me ne licaþ!" saegde Fæder Bera. Swa aras he and eode to reste in cycene.

Coming up: Mr Bear regrets not fixing the leaky tap!




Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on May 31, 2015, 05:23:14 PM
Phyllis

You are doing brilliantly.

Licætte sounds fine. I thought it was licette (licettan) but maybe that is just a different dialect. If you really are not happy with that you could try bebrægd (bebregdan), hiwode (hiwian) or leasette (leasettan).

I love lyftscip. I was thinking of lyftwægn but I think that lyftscip is better.

I agree that tidmæl does not sound right. It sounds like a measure of time. I thought of tidere but that would be someone who measures time. If you really do not like tidmæl maybe you could consider tidsearu.

NYAOW defeated me. The best suggestion I could come up with is NIGAOW, but I do not know what the Englisc would make of “AO”

“went to sleep in the living room” . If you mean “fell asleep in the living room” I would use “onslep in healle”. If you meant “went into the living room to sleep” I would use “eode in healle to restenne/slæpenne”. It would be the same for kitchen but I would use “cycenan”.

For TICK TOCK I would leave out the Ks. If you think that TIC would be pronounced “tich” you could replace the “i” with any other vowel except “e”. Alternatively you could try TIH.
You could even use TIK TOK. In later years some people used K in “king” to show it was pronounced “king” not “ching”
CUCKOO I would spell CUCU”.

I hope that some of this is of help.
 
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on May 31, 2015, 06:24:07 PM
Hello David and thank you so much for the help!

I will  keep liceætte if you think it's OK (as my prinunciation is a bit hit and miss I doubt the æ/e distinction will make much difference)

Funnily enough I had originally had wægn instead of scip but we encounter a car soon, which will be wægen so I htought it best to keep them distinct

I'll stick to tidmæl too unles anyone else comes up with anything better - it's quite a challenge!

The capitalised words are simpky the noise I am going to make so I don;t need an eald englisc spelling :)

I am haivng so much fun with this it ought to be illegal!

Thansk again

Phyllis


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Deoran on June 01, 2015, 07:37:37 PM
Hi Phyllis - you may already have thought of this, but when trying to coin OE words for modern objects or concepts, it's sometimes useful to see what modern Dutch / German uses. If you don't have a dictionary, Google Translate provides a good (and free!) alternative.

So for example, by analogy with Dutch uurwerk (hour-work or "time-piece"), clock might be hwilweorc, or tidweorc? Alternatively, since solmerca is sundial (although somewhat poorly attested, it seems) perhaps hwilmerca or tidmerca? I think I like hwilweorc the best as it sort of alliterates and hwil also sounds like wheel, conjuring up the image of the cog mechanism inside a clock.

I too like lyftscip (provided Mrs Bear's not intending to travel on a dirigible later in the story...), but by admittedly creative analogy with German, something like fleogfering or flyhtfær might be alternatives for aeroplane?
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 02, 2015, 08:22:45 PM
I like hwilweorc very much! Thank you  :)

On a more I'll take it as neuter?

I have some German but was getting hung up on Stunde and Uhr so gave up - that will teach me

Flyhtfær is also nice - I had been toying with flyhtþing myself before lyftscip (Luftwaffe sprang to mind so obviously not all my German is useless!). I might leave well alone there though and stick to my airship. No blimps have been or will be harmed during this epic saga of one Bear's quest for peace






Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on June 03, 2015, 02:13:27 PM

_______________________________________________________________________________
I too like lyftscip ( provided Mrs Bear’s not intending to travel on a dirigible later in the story...)
_______________________________________________________________________________



Well this is just too jammy!  I’d hit upon lyftscip for ‘zeppelin’ in the script for Sucker Punch at which I am pegging away.  Babydoll shoots one down with a Maxim gun ( firing from the hip, it’s easy when you know how).

Ignore this Phyllis if you think, quite rightly, that lyftscip gives children the best chance of guessing what you’re on about.  Yet since I hit upon it quite independently as a synonym for ‘zeppelin’, I too wonder if lyftscip is best confined to ‘airship’ ( which it literally means) and a fixed-wing aircraft had better be something clearly different?  Since you are saving wæġn for later to avoid the risk of confusion, my suggestion would be folcflyġa ( lit. ‘people flyer’)?

Or of course you can do a perfectly good job without my help...


PS: Just thought of Wederscip too.  Why do I find this sort of thing so engaging?  Anyone for hweorfwæġn or whirlwain for ‘helicopter’?

Okay, I'll go and calm down...


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: lawrence on June 04, 2015, 10:29:23 AM
An enty in the New AS Chronicle has "lyftcræft"

Cheers,

Lawrence
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: brian farrell on June 07, 2015, 03:10:54 AM
Personally, I consider:-

(1) the verb "to wharf" as representing a reverse of direction; an about-turn, or U-turn (hence the comings and goings of ships at a "wharf", or dock-side), rather than a rotational-turn, which is probably better represented by the verb 'cirran', or 'ymb-cirran';

(2) "craft" as being the "art/science/skill of ... ", rather than a vehicle, or vessel.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: lawrence on June 07, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
["craft" as being the "art/science/skill of ... ", rather than a vehicle, or vessel.]

Encouragingly, that's what I thought!

Lawrence
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 08, 2015, 05:15:08 PM
Oh I like folcflyga rather a lot! I think it sounds really good! Thanks, Bowerthane :)

The weekend has been a washout for OE translation so I will try and get the next bit up later this evening otherwise it wil  be next week

Thanks again to everyone for their help - I'm really looking forward to trying this out at Stamford Bridge in September.

Wesan ge hal

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 08, 2015, 05:42:08 PM
OK, here we go - it turned out I had less to do than I thought :)

This time I am struggling with declining my verbs in particular, but as always any comments will help me.

To recap, Mr Bear has left the living room and gone to the kitchen for some shut-eye:

“Drip drip” went the leaky kitchen tap
“Hmm” went the refrigerator
“Oh no,” said Mr Bear, “I can’t stand this!” So he got up and went to sleep in the garden.

Well, you would not believe what noises there are in the garden at night!
“Tu wit tu woo” went the owl
“Snuffle snuffle” went the hedgehog
“Miaow miaow” sang the cats on the garden wall
“Oh no,” said Mr Bear, “I can’t stand this!” So he got up and went to sleep in the car.

“DRIP DRIP”  drypde se cycenes tæppe.
“HMMM” great se cealdloca.
“Eala nese,” saegde Fæder Bera, “þis me ne licaþ!” Swa aras he and eode in wyrtgearde to restenne .

Hwæt! ge ne beliefan hu fela breahtm  man hierþ in wyrtgearde be niht.
“TU WIT TU WOO” ceallode seo ule.
“SNUFFLE SNUFFLE”  snyþode se hattefagol.
“MIAOW MIAOW” sangon þa cattas on þæm wyrtgeardes wealle.
“Eala nese,” saegde Fæder Bera, “þis me ne licaþ!” Swa aras he and eode in wægene to restenne.


Coming up: even the light gets noisy

ic þoncie eow ealle!

Phyllis


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: brian farrell on June 08, 2015, 09:00:48 PM
Hedgehog,

'hatte-fagol' ('haerean-fugol') appears to be very rare in OE literature. I think that it is an erroneous OE attempt at the Latin "herinacius", usually referring to the Middle Eastern "hyrax", a creature that would not have been kenned by AS people.

An alternate version of the same psalm refers to 'igil', {masc. noun}. This noun also appears in other OE literature, and has links to other Germanic languages, as "hedgehog" (or "urchin").

It is also tentatively linked to modern English as "{dropped-H}-igglepiggle", i.e. "little hedge-pig".

Brian

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on June 08, 2015, 11:35:16 PM

Rather than “drypde se cycenes tæppe” I would say “drypte þære cycenan (droppende) tæppa”.  You could possibly say “drypte se tæppa cycenan”. In the same way instead of “on þæm wyrtgeardes wealle” I would say “on þæs wyrtgeardes wealle”

When you say “went to sleep in the garden/car” you are actually saying “went into the garden/car to sleep” so I would use “in wyrtgeard” and “in wægen”.

Rather than “be niht” you should say “be nihte” or even better would be “nihterne”

Like Brian I prefer “igil” to “hattefagol” although I am not as knowledgeable as he.

I liked “cealdloca”

One shudders to think what the light is going to do.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on June 09, 2015, 03:21:49 PM
On a bit of an academic note now, since Phyllis seems to have made up her mind ( pleasure’s all mine, Phyllis!), but speaking of:

_________________________________________________________________
(2) "craft" as being the "art/science/skill of ... ", rather than a vehicle, or vessel.
_________________________________________________________________

______________________________
Encouragingly, that's what I thought!
______________________________


But this is what I came close to posting the other day, too.  My copy of Henry Sweet’s An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language, an unrevised 1988 impression of the original 1879-1882 edition, has no entry for ‘craft’ in the sense ‘vehicle, vessel’ at all.  Which was an eyebrow-raiser.  So cross checking with the online etymological dictionary dates ‘craft’ in the sense ‘small boat’ to the 1670s.  Yet the same webpage-thingy also refers to a “late Old English” usage to mean “trade, handicraft, calling,” that led to "something built or made" in the same period.

Yet also, when I made one last effort to be thorough ( I have been known to be wrong, honest) the other day I also checked against the online version of Bosworth and Toller and it seems that cræft in the sense of ‘vehicle, vessel’ does occur in the pre-1066 corpus, in the second of three references:

Dele 'IV. a craft, kind of ship; navis qualiscunque,' and add under I. Mid eallum Créca cræftum universam Graeciae lectam juventutem, Ors. 1, 10; S. 46, 31. Under II :-- Hé leornode sumne cræft þe hine áfét, Hml. Th. ii. 556, 32. Under III :-- Hié wénað ðæt hiera unðeáwas sién sum gód cræft vitium virtus creditur, Past. 289, 13. Hearpestrengas mi”

I have no experience of the print-on-paper Bosworth and Toller, but I have come to lean on the online version more these last few months as it’s never put any typo, out-of-date or just-plain-wrong banana skins under my feet.  Yet.  So just at the moment also looks to me as if this shade of meaning doesn’t seem to be common but neither so scarce as to amount to little more than a few nonce words.  Left to my own devices I back off from any word or usage that seems too rare, too aberrant or otherwise obscure

So... I suppose Phyllis could have lyftcræft if that’s what suited her book.

I’m presuming that this is news to other aficionados of the Old Mother Tongue as I was firmly convinced that ‘craft’ as a synonym for a vehicle or vessel was a long-after 1066 development.  I only caught myself out with the long habit of checking.

Or is there still something I should know…?

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: brian farrell on June 10, 2015, 03:54:36 PM
Bowerthane,

You appear to confirm that the Bosworth/Toller Supplement rejects the idea of 'craeft' representing a "vessel".

Delete 'IV. a CRAFT, any kind of ship; navis qualiscunque';
and you further state that such use did not apply until the modern English language era (1670s); but then your final conclusion is that Phyllis could therefore use this variant of the word in an OE setting.

I'm struggling to follow the logic of the argument, or have I missed something.

Admittedly, the B/T Supplement does add a new sub-section 4; i.e.
"IV. a machine, instrument, engine",
but I have some doubts concerning the examples given there, as they are difficult to assess without analysing the overall context from which they come.

Brian
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on June 11, 2015, 01:55:54 PM

______________________________________________________________
I'm struggling to follow the logic of the argument, or have I missed something.
______________________________________________________________




Well there's no logic or argument as such, Brian.  Simply an apparent clash between what I thought I knew and what that online entry in Bosworth and Toller seems to be saying.  Puzzling at it a bit harder, now, the exemplars it gives don't seem to represent the 'vessel' shade of meaning anyway, leaving me wondering to what the blinkingflip the "IV. a craft, kind of ship" reference is actually supposed to refer, or what the dickens it's doing there.  Yet this wouldn't be the first time that a reference work has bowled strange googlies at me, hence the caution I express. 


Can anyone who is familiar with Bosworth and Toller say what this "craft, kind of ship" reference is all about, when it's not putting people's noses out?




Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Jayson on June 11, 2015, 04:53:08 PM
You might like to try our own Stephen Pollington who has written many books on A-S England.  See
http://www.asbooks.co.uk/ (http://www.asbooks.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 12, 2015, 04:32:58 PM
Thanks again to one and all!

I will use igil for hedgehog and grind my teeth that I didn't find it in any of the places I looked. Which is of course why I am so grateful to you all.

I intend to remain brazenly to the side of the cræft debate and stick with folcflyga. I like it, and it works for my purposes of trying to make it sound New English enough for children (and parents) to follow.

However, David, can you just explain to my poor brain why I don't put the -e on the end of wyrtgeard and wægen? I thought I always did in the dative? And I am annoyed with myself that I missed it from niht because I did know that really! So yet again, thank you :)

I will bring you noisy light in due course ....


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on June 13, 2015, 03:17:56 PM

Phyllis

You are right – you add an “-e” onto both wyrtgeard and wægen to give the dative case.

This brings us to “went to sleep in the garden”. If you mean “fell asleep in the garden” I would use “onslep in wyrtgearde”. If you meant “went into the garden to sleep” I would use “eode in wyrtgeard to restenne/slæpenne”.

When “in” means “in/on” (being in/on this place) it takes the dative case. When “in” means “into/onto” (motion into/onto this place) it takes the accusative case. Earlier for heall and cycene the dative and accusative were identical.

In my dictionary it says that you can use the instrumental case instead of the dative. I would not use that as it sounds very old. The instrumental case ending for masculine and neuter nouns was “-i” but that is archaic old English. Even at that time there was no instrumental case for feminine nouns.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 16, 2015, 10:07:34 AM

When “in” means “in/on” (being in/on this place) it takes the dative case. When “in” means “into/onto” (motion into/onto this place) it takes the accusative case. Earlier for heall and cycene the dative and accusative were identical.


So - it's like German then. Thank you David, that makes sense.

I am having a bit of trouble with some of the phrasing so as always appreciate ideas. This is the last section, so thank you for your patience! I hope it has been interesting at least.

For your troubles I now present the noisy Sun :)

In our final instalment, we catch up with Mr Bear who has gone to try and find some shut-eye in his car. Unfortunately the world has other ideas; but [SPOILER ALERT] it all turns out alright in the end, thanks to Mrs Bear!

"It was cold in the car and uncomfortable but Mr Bear was so tired he didn’t notice. He was just falling asleep when all the birds started to sing and the sun peeped in at the window
“Tweet tweet” went the birds
“Shine shine” went the sun
“Oh no,” said Mr Bear, “I can’t stand this!” So he got up and went back into the house.

In the house Baby Bear was fast asleep and Mrs Bear had turned over and she wasn’t snoring any more. Mr Bear got into bed and closed his eyes. “Peace at last!” he said to himself.

“Bring! bring! bring!” went the alarm clock.
Mrs Bear sat up and rubbed her eyes. “Good morning, dear,” she said. “Did you sleep well?”
 “Not very well, dear,”  yawned Mr Bear
“Never mind,” said Mrs Bear, “I’ll bring you a nice cup of tea.”
And she did."

Hit wæs ceald in þæm wægene and unsoftne ac Fæder Bera wæs wel werig and he ne cepde. Swa onslep he swa begannan singan ealle fugolas and scan seo sunne  þurh eagþyrele
 “TWEET TWEET” sangaþ þa fugolas
“Scin! Scin!” scan seo sunne
“Eala nese,” saegde Fæder Bera, “þis me ne licaþ!” Swa aras he and cirrde ongean to huse

In þæm huse wæs Lyteling Bera fulslæpende and Modor Bera wæs ymbhweorfende and þan hie ne fnærde
Faeder Bera laeg on þaem bedde and his eagan beclysdon
“Sibb aet nyhstan” saegde he to selfe

 “BRING BRING BRING”  bodode wæcbelle
Modor Bera awæcode and agnide hiere eagan. “Godne mergen, deor,” saegde hie. “Slæpdest þu wel?”
 “Ne ful wel, deor” ginode Fæder Bera
 “Sarig þe to hierde” saegde Modor Bera “ic bringe þe leoflican te-drinca”
Swa dyde hie.  :-*


Soþlice :)


Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on June 16, 2015, 03:38:30 PM

This was a surprise, I was thinking of an electric light.

I have made a few points but, on the whole, I think that you did a difficult job very well.

Several times you used “hie” for she where I would have expected “heo”. Was this a mistake or is this dialect, “eo” does change to “ie” under i-mutation?

Sangaþ should be sungon.
Þaem should be þæm.
Beclysdon should be beclysde.
Sibb is fine but I would prefer stillnes and it is more like modern English.
Agnide should be agnad.
Godne should be god. Also I prefer morgen to mergen and it is closer to the modern English.
I think that ful wel should be full wel or even to wel.

I don’t know about “te” I would have left it out.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on June 16, 2015, 03:54:10 PM

I have just been thinking about “never mind”. How about “ne sarga” or “ne sara”?
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Bowerthane on June 17, 2015, 02:14:04 PM
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
When “in” means “in/on” (being in/on this place) it takes the dative case. When “in” means “into/onto” (motion into/onto this place) it takes the accusative case.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Well I said this was too jammy, and now this.  Though I prefer on to in.  Trying to find a bum-steer for how to distinguish on = ‘in/ inside’ from on = ‘into/ towards’ is a point I, too, was stuck upon. 

Sorry I don’t seem to be much help to you, Phyllis, but your thread is definitely helping me.

David, can I make absolutely sure that I am right to expect that this rule holds good for articles and pronouns, too?  By which I mean that on þone/ þæt/ þá/ þá does mean “into/ towards the-something-masculine/ the-something-neuter/ the-something-feminine/ them” whereas on þǽm/ þǽm/ þǽre/ þǽm still means “in/ inside the-something-masculine/ the-something-neuter/ the-something-feminine/ those” respectively?

Likewise, on hine/ hit/ híe/ híe definitely means ‘into/ towards him/ her/ it/ them’ whereas on him/ him/ hi(e)re/ him still means ‘in/ inside him/ it/ her/ them’ as it ought to, if there’s any justice in the world?

The bit of translation I’m fumbling with involves a reference back to a country that is grammatically feminine in Old English which, thanks to you, I now think should be ac  híe wandraþ on híe for “but they wander into it”, as well as a few ons before articles or just nouns.  Of these the knottiest is “on the right” ( as opposed the left) which I now think should be on þá rihthand in full, and not on þǽre rihthanda which, I’m supposing, could mean only ‘in a physical right hand’.

Granted that I am right that the Old English never used riht on its own to refer to the opposite to left.

( Or is there still ::)  some funny business I should know about?)

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: David on June 17, 2015, 10:01:54 PM

Beowerthane

The idea does extend to pronouns and adjectives.

For left and right try winestra and swiþra which are comparative adjectives. You can find them in Bosworth and Toller. Swiþra is not so easy to find but it is under swiþ, section II. I guess there were no left handed Anglo-Saxons.

I am afraid that I am rather busy at the moment I shall quiet on the site.
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 19, 2015, 03:56:05 PM
Many thanks again David - I shall correct as you suggest. I was having a total brainstorn with hie instead of heo! Don't mind me, I'll just be lying down in a dark room.

I had used sibb as I think I saw it in a Gospel but you are completely right - stilnes is much better!

Once I have updated the final batch I will put up the full transcript as a separate post in case anyone wants to use it for an event as well. Then I will write it up in an uncial hand so I have a proper story book for when we go to Stamford Bridge in September :)

I really appreciate everyone's help on here. You are all totally amazing, patient and generous  ;D

If things go well at Stamford Bridge and people are interested I might try a similar exercise with another story in the Autumn.

Wesan ge hal!

Phyllis

Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Horsa on June 19, 2015, 08:07:16 PM
Bowerthane, you asked about 'on the left' and 'on the right'


For some reason, the phrases tō wynstrum and to swīþrum popped unbidden into my tiny but pulsating brain. I put tō wynstrum into Google and got back two wonderful things. The first was a confirmation that my instincts may well have been correct:


The verse from Matthew 26:41 -


'Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire'


'þa coeðes he tō ðæm ðaðe to wynstrum biðon: offstiges, gie awoergedo, from me, in ðæt ecce fyr'


As you can see, this isn't the West Saxon we all know and love from our teaching materials. The second great thing the google search brought is that this translation of Matthew is in a book that purports to be the gospels in the Northumbrian variant of Old English.


https://books.google.ca/books?id=-uVUAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=to+wynstrum&source=bl&ots=R1nja7amQa&sig=NrCZ0YdZeMk9PMcmG4GK2KTamIM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NWGEVfbLMM-XyATYrIOoDg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=-uVUAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=to+wynstrum&source=bl&ots=R1nja7amQa&sig=NrCZ0YdZeMk9PMcmG4GK2KTamIM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NWGEVfbLMM-XyATYrIOoDg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on June 20, 2015, 11:00:46 AM
Hello again!

I have amended the text as guided by various people, mainly David, and here is the final version. If anyone spots any further corrections I would love to know.

I am including both Word and PDF versions so hopefully you will be able to read at least one. Let me know if another format would be helpful.

I have also numbered the sections so if you do have a comment on wording, please can you help by saying which section it is in?

It seemed to me it might be of use to other groups for events :)

Wesan ge hal

Phyllis
scop-in-training :))


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Title: Re: Children's storytime
Post by: Phyllis on July 22, 2015, 09:41:22 PM
Greetings once more!

I am uploading a revised version of the story with the sound effects in approximate Old Englisc spelling in case anyone wants them - if you can improve on them please feel free as they are basically phonetic

Wesan ge hal!



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