Gegaderung

Gegaderung => Old English Language => Topic started by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 15, 2020, 03:14:25 PM

Title: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 15, 2020, 03:14:25 PM

Greetings friends,
I wondered if I might ask for your help in translating into old English the beginning of a prayer?

The words are: "To dear Tiw, to my dear mother & brother and to the dear spirit of nature herself"

Two part question:
I was hoping 1) just to have a literal translation of the text.
I got scared when I realised that "to my...." might involve a different case....dative?? And genitive for "spirit of nature"? Plus trying to get the correct senses of the words "spirit" and "nature". Dictionaries of course don't help with context!

And 2) did Anglo Saxons worship a 'spirit of nature' per se? The phrase conjures up the deity I want to honour but for the Anglo Saxons (for whom nature was of course important) are we getting into elves, wights etc.,?
Ought I be praying to a whole host of elves?
The "wights" according to certain authors, are cognate with our "spirit or sense of place" but I've only heard of landwights - not wights of sea & air etc. I wish to honour the totality of nature.
This has me perplexed & I can't find anything decent on AS relationship with/veneration of  nature.

So, over to you! If I only get an answer to question 1 I'd be happy. 2 might be a long discussion!
Best wishes to all & many many thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Thanks,
Wayne.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: David on June 15, 2020, 05:45:33 PM

 For the translation you could try
Tō lēofe Tīwe, tō mīnre lēofan mēder and brēðer and tō þǣm ġesceaftes gāste selfe
 
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Phyllis on June 16, 2020, 10:01:15 AM

 For the translation you could try
Tō lēofe Tīwe, tō mīnre lēofan mēder and brēðer and tō þǣm ġesceaftes gāste selfe
 


Might we want to throw in an additional "leofan" at "þǣm leofan ġesceaftes gāste selfe"?

Meanwhile if you can get a copy Stephen Pollington's book on "The Elder Gods" is very comprehensive. It's a little pricey but well worth the investment if this is an area you are interested in. I do have a copy if you want a particular thing looking up!

Also - welcome!

Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 17, 2020, 11:58:20 PM
Thank you so much - I really appreciate it, the welcome also! Translation looks great.
I will have a look for Pollingtons book. It's certainly an area which I'd like to study in greater depth.
Thank you once again.
Wayne
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Phyllis on June 18, 2020, 07:49:02 AM
I'd be interested if you find other good sources too - to be honest it's a bit of a minefield as I'm sure you can imagine!
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 18, 2020, 01:08:02 PM
Yes it seems not so straight forward! I'm going to re-interrogate my Aleric Albertsson books & maybe just start compiling some random notes which I could share with you. Looking out for a 2nd hand copy of Pollingtons book too.
Thanks again guys.
Best wishes
Wayne
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 18, 2020, 01:15:57 PM
David, I've just realised it's your good self Mr Hinch. *Big friendly wave* :)  I hope you're well.
Best wishes
Wayne
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: David on June 18, 2020, 09:52:21 PM

Wayne,


Don't tell anyone. We have user names to hide our identities. I'm doing the double bluff.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: David on June 19, 2020, 07:51:25 AM
 Wayne, I was only kidding in my last post. However, I did notice an error in my translation, apart from the omission that Phyllis pointed out.
“Tō lēofe Tīwe …” should have been “Tō lēofum Tīwe …”, i.e. the dative not the instrumental.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 19, 2020, 08:13:06 PM
Thanks David. No, I like the air of mystery now ... we're like early mediaeval MI5. 8)
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Phyllis on June 21, 2020, 10:44:04 AM
All cloak and dagger?  ::)
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 21, 2020, 02:22:33 PM
 ;D ;D haha indeed!
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 21, 2020, 03:12:08 PM
I had another translation thought, if you would be so kind as to assist.
If I wanted to say:.."...and to all the benevolent spirits of nature...."
Would that be:
".....and to ealle welwillendeum gastum gesceaftes...."
Feel free to tear it apart, I promise I won't cry.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: David on June 21, 2020, 04:15:57 PM
 That looks pretty good. I would just change “ēalle welwillendeum” to “ēallum welwillendum”.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 22, 2020, 01:39:39 AM
Thanks David. Nice to know I wasn't a million miles away!  ;D :D
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Linden on June 29, 2020, 03:19:03 PM
Hello Wayne -can I ask you what you mean by 'to' in this beginning of a prayer?  Are you calling upon/addressing Tiw, a mother and brother and nature itself or making a dedication only? For example the OE Lord's Prayer invokes God as fæder ure and the Nine Herbs Charm addresses both mycgwyrt and wegbrade all of these being in the nominative which, in OE, serves as the vocative of direct address (or who/what you are talking to).
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 30, 2020, 02:52:57 PM
Hi,
Yes, I suppose it is in the sense you suggest ...it's the opening bit of a prayer which follows, so calling on god's, mother, brother etc like the "our father" in lord's prayer.
So how would that leave us in terms of grammar (I'm getting confused...which doesn't take much!)?
So far, we've got:
 "Tō lēofum Tīwe, [and other gods] tō mīnre lēofan mēder and brēðer [and ieldran] tō þǣm leofan ġesceaftes gāste selfe, and to ealle welwillendeum gastum,"

Many thanks.
.

Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Linden on June 30, 2020, 05:13:46 PM
You would lose the dative completely and use the simpler nominative throughout. Perhaps something along the following lines - although I offer no cast-iron guarantee on grammatical endings!  I also took the liberty of offering a few synonyms for 'leof' to add a bit more 'punch' and poetry to it; 'swæs' is frequently used to expressed belovedness of kin, 'lufwende' not only carries the sense of 'dear' but also 'friendly' and using the superlative of 'leof'  for the gods seems appropriate.  'Eala' is used in OE as the approximate equivalent of Lat/Eng 'O!' or English 'Hail!' and is an 'optional extra'.
 
(Eala!) leofest Tiw ond ....., swæse modor ond........,  lufwende gesceaftes gast selfe ond eall welwillende gastas, .........
I hope that this is of some help.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on June 30, 2020, 05:46:53 PM
Thank you very much. I like the additional terms of endearment. Very interesting grammatical point too. I will do my best to remember that as I  very very gradually pick up bits & pieces of old English along the way.
Thanks & best wishes.
Wayne
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Linden on June 30, 2020, 06:26:10 PM
Good luck with the translation.  Have you come across this yet?


http://www.oldenglishaerobics.net/resources/magic_letter.pdf (http://www.oldenglishaerobics.net/resources/magic_letter.pdf)


It is quite useful although it does not provide all possible variations/spellings.
Title: Re: Translation plse plus other
Post by: Wayne Aelfhere on July 01, 2020, 09:32:10 PM
Looks excellent. I've saved a copy.
Thank you.
Wayne