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Author Topic: Personal pronouns & grammar book  (Read 1575 times)

Wayne Aelfhere

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Personal pronouns & grammar book
« on: August 04, 2021, 04:24:14 PM »

Greetings friends.
 I have a 3-part grammar question for you today if you would be so kind.
I need to know the correct form of the personal pronoun "you", plural, and if the examples need, or just imply, a preposition.

My examples are:
Ic bidde eow (I ask of you)
Ic þancie eow (I thank you)
Ic spelle eow (I proclaim to you)

So,
Part 1) do any of these require the preposition "to" - particularly the last example, or is the preposition implied by the case/form of the latter personal pronoun?

Part 2) what on earth are the correct forms of "eow" (2nd person plural)? For the first two, I would guess the word would take the accusative/object form of "eow"...whatever that is. And the third example smells like dative to me, but again, I don't know if there is a dative form of "eow".

Part 3) is there a "user-friendly" grammar book which would have answered these questions? Then I wouldn't have to bother you all with these things!
I have phrase books & Leofwin, but it's very time consuming having to leaf through and deduce the grammar from examples. There aren't necessarily the examples I need anyway.

Thank you all so very much in advance for any help you can give.
With best wishes,
Wayne.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 04:26:51 PM by Wayne Aelfhere »

Phyllis

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2021, 04:39:00 PM »
Hi Wayne

Here is what I have found in Bosworth Toller:

BIDDAN, ic bidde, ðú biddest, bidst, bitst, he biddeþ, bit, byt, bitt, pl. biddaþ; impert. bide, pl. biddaþ; p. ic, he bæd, ðú bǽde, pl. bǽdon; pp. beden : followed by an acc. of the person, or by the prep. to, and a gen. of the thing; v. trans. To ask, pray, intreat, beseech,

þancian - with dat. of person to whom thanks are given

spellian (when trans) example implies dative - Him wæs lust ðæt hé ðiossum leódum leóð spellode,

The forms I have are:
   
Nom   "gē or git - you two/both"

Acc   "ēow / ēowic incet"

Gen   "ēower (declines)** or incer"

Dat   "ēowrum or inc"
   
   
eower** drops 2nd -e- when ending added eg eowrum, eowre
   

If you don't have Stephen Pollington's First Steps that might be good? And the Bosworth Toller site offers examples and links also links the old Grammar by Wright which is scanned in. It's here:

https://bosworthtoller.com/

Or do just ask!

Phyllis

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2021, 09:49:09 PM »
Yay! That's excellent Phyllis, thank you. That looks like a fantastic resource, the Bosworth site. I will order Pollington's book. His stuff is always good & approachable. Many thanks and very best wishes.  :)

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2021, 10:01:22 PM »
Just looked at Pollington's book and notice that's a complete course rather than a grammar reference. Is there an "old English quick grammar reference for dummies"-type of book?
Thanks.

David

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2021, 06:22:53 PM »
Just to add a couple of things to what Phyllis said.
 
Iċ spelle should be iċ spellie.
 
They usually do not have a preposition but they can do.
 
The cases for the plural you are
Nominative                 ġē
Accusative                  ēow
Genitive                     ēower
Dative                        ēow
 
Building up biddan
I am asking him                           Iċ bidde hine (accusative)
I am asking him for food               Iċ bidde hine (accusative) metes (genitive)
I am asking him for food for her    Iċ bidde hine (accusative) metes (genitive) hire (dative).
 
Building up þancian
I thank him                          Iċ þancie him (dative)
I thank him for the food        Iċ þancie him (dative) þæs metes(genitive)
 
Building up spellian
I am telling him                       Iċ spellie him(dative)
I am telling him a poem           Iċ spellie him(dative) lēoð (accusative)
 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 09:58:54 AM by David »

Phyllis

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2021, 07:24:01 PM »
As for a grammar - I wonder if Bill Griffith's User Friendly Dictionary of Old English might suit you? It covers grammatical basics so don't be fooled by the title!

Otherwise I rely on the old Victorian / Edwardian ones which can be downloaded but do seem to think you understand Latin and Greek... try archive.org for examples

Some of it is about finding what suits you - charity bookshops can be a good source if you are near a university
Phyllis

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2021, 05:43:30 AM »
Thanks both, most useful stuff indeed. Nice to "see" you both again too! I hope you're both keeping well and happy.
Best wishes & thanks again.  :)

David

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2021, 10:02:32 AM »
I have just corrected my post. I noticed that for biddan and þancian I had the Modern English in the past tense and the Old English in the present tense.

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2021, 12:31:11 AM »
Sooo, the OE dative for modern "him" is "him"? That would be very easy & convenient to remember!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 12:32:46 AM by Wayne Aelfhere »

David

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2021, 07:36:05 AM »
You have to be careful because the accusative for the modern him is hine and the dative for the modern them is also him.

Phyllis

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2021, 09:41:17 AM »
Thanks both, most useful stuff indeed. Nice to "see" you both again too! I hope you're both keeping well and happy.
Best wishes & thanks again.  :)

Good to see you too! :)
Phyllis

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2021, 09:52:31 PM »
You have to be careful because the accusative for the modern him is hine and the dative for the modern them is also him.
That reminds me of the modern German ihne and ihm.


By the way - Phyllis - I remembered I had Mr Griffiths on my shelf all along, but he gives a different version of 2nd person pronouns. Are his like a simplified alternative? I hope I've attached a pic.


David

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2021, 10:36:41 PM »
The accusative plural is ēow. Ġe is an error.
In Anglian dialects and some poetry ēowiċ is often used as an alternative to ēow in the accusative plural.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 11:11:37 PM by David »

Wayne Aelfhere

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2021, 12:03:08 AM »
Thank you. I've ordered two other grammars second hand - Brights (Cassidy & Ringlet eds) , and Mitchell. I'll trust those more then!  :D

Phyllis

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Re: Personal pronouns & grammar book
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2021, 09:59:13 AM »
Ah, typos in Old English language texts! It seems that First Steps is not alone :)
Phyllis