Gegaderung

Gegaderung => Old English Language => Topic started by: David on February 08, 2016, 07:55:32 PM

Title: Carols
Post by: David on February 08, 2016, 07:55:32 PM



Listening to carols over Christmas I thought it would be nice to sing along in old English. Therefore I translated “Silent Night” into old English. Please post corrections. Now I have started to translate  “O Holy Night”. This is a bit longer so I shall probably post it verse by verse. Do join in with other carols.

Silent Night                                                                Still Night

Silent night, holy night                                               Still niht, hāliġ niht
All is calm, all is bright                                                Eall is smylte, eall is beorht
Round yon virgin, mother and child                            Ymbe ġeonre mægþ, mēder and ċilde
Holy infant, tender and mild                                        Hāliġ lȳtling, hnesce and milde
Sleep in heavenly peace                                              Slǣp in heofoniscum friðe
Sleep in heavenly peace                                              Slǣp in heofoniscum friðe
 
Silent night, holy night                                               Still niht, hāliġ niht
Son of God, love’s pure light                                      Goding, lufe clǣne lēoht
Radient beams from thy holy face                               Torhte bēamas of þīnum hālgan ansīene
With the dawn of redeeming grace                              Mid þǣm uhte alīesednesse lisse
Jesus, Lord at thy birth                                               Iesus,dryhten æt þīnum ġebyrde
Jesus, Lord at thy birth                                               Iesus,dryhten æt þīnum ġebyrde
 
Silent night, holy night                                                Still niht, hāliġ niht
Shepherd’s quake at the sight                                     Hierdras cwaciaþ æt ġesihte
Glories stream from heaven above                               Wuldor iernaþ of heofone ofer
Heavenly host sing hallelujah                                       Heofonliċ gaderung singþ hallelūiā
Christ the savior is born                                              Crist se hǣlend wæcnaþ
Christ the savior is born                                              Crist se hǣlend wæcnaþ
 
 

In line 3 I took ġeonre to apply to mægþ, but not to mēder and ċilde. I took ymbe to apply to everything in line 3 but nothing in line 4. What do you think?
In the last verse I have no idea how to write hallejulah in old English so I just made a guess. Please correct me.
With the extra syllables it can be difficult to fit the old English to the tune. So in the first verse I had to run together ymbe ġeonre and run together -foniscum friðe.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Horsa on February 09, 2016, 07:02:44 PM
I looked up the word still in the B&T. I would have been very wary of using this word as it is in the German version of the song, and I'm nervous of false friends that stretch across the germanic languages. Anyway, the B&T gave stille  (http://bosworthtoller.com/028996)as the adjective rather than still. But more importantly, one of the meanings given is indeed 'silent', so I learnt something and I'm only one word in.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on February 10, 2016, 02:12:23 PM
Ooh, thanks David that was delicious!

I can do nothing to critique your treatment of the material, which is ahead of my abilities grammatically, unless to endorse your decisions.

It seems clear to me that “Silent night, holy night/ All is calm, all is bright/ Round yon virgin, mother and child” are functionally a sentence, in that they develop and complete only one thought, whereas “Holy infant, tender and mild/ Sleep in heavenly peace” etc. amount to another, grammatically separate sentence/ thought.  Ergo “sleep in heavenly peace” is the predicate/ verb and object of which “Holy infant, tender and mild” is the subject, so nothing that goes on before “Holy” has any bearing on it.  Or at any rate you are within your syntactical rights so to treat it!

I’m sure hallelūiā is as good a way of spelling it as any too, though left to my own devices I’d’ve plumped for halelúġa.  Only the Old English may use double S for Z and double F for V ( and doesn’t Northumbrian or something use double U, literally UU, for our W-sound?) all of which gives me the willies about using any double letters for fear they may have had some phonetic significance for our ancestors. 

( That, and because one of my ‘ten commandments’ when translating is to minimize any risk of ambiguity, all other things being equal.  Unequal considerations could include an ambiguity that is integral to an attempt at artistic effect, or if it is in character for a certain speaker to waffle, use broken English, work in IT or they are under the influence of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, Hegelian metaphysics, Postmodernism, French existentialism and just about any career politician since about 1965, onwards.)


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on February 14, 2016, 11:40:33 AM



Thank you Horsa and Bowerthane for your comments which I have taken on board. I did originally write “stille” but when I came back to it I thought “I want the adjective not the adverb”. Of course for “stille” they both have the “e”. I would normally use “ġ” rather than “i” for the consonant “y” as I try to use the 10th century West Saxon if I know what that is. However most of the religious work I have seen has been Anglian. I think I might use Bowerthane’s suggestion. When we think we have written something in good Old English it is probably a mishmash of time periods and dialects.
 
I will wait a couple of days to see if there are any more comments on “Silent Night” then I will post the first verse of “O Holy Night”
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Æðelstān on February 15, 2016, 04:05:04 PM
Going back to what Bowerthane said about the Uu in place of W, I've seen it in Old Saxon and Old High German for Woden (Uuöden and Uuodan) but I'm not sure about Northumbrian
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on February 15, 2016, 04:38:51 PM



I thought that it was common to use "u" or "uu" for "w" in Northumbrian.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on February 17, 2016, 08:40:36 PM



I was rather hoping for more comments on “Silent Night” and that some-one would join in with another carol. Anyway this is my attempt at verse 1 of “O Holy Night”. Later I will post the other verses. After that I wondered about “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”
 
O Holy Night                                                                Lā Hāliġ Niht

O Holy Night! The stars are brightly shining,               Lā Hāliġ Niht! Þā steorran beorhte scīnaþ
It is the night of the dear Saviour’s birth.                    Hit is sēo niht þæs lēofan Hælendes byrde
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.                   Lange liþ eorþe in gylte and dwilde weorþaþ.
Till he appeared and the spirit felt its worth.                Oð hē cōm and se gāst onġeat his weorð.
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices,                     Yð tōhopan se wēriġ weoruld blissaþ
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.               For ġeond niwe and wuldorful morgen bricð
Fall on your knees! Oh, hear the angel voices!            Feall on þīn cnēo! Lā, hīer þāra engla drēamas!
O night divine, the night when christ was born;          Lā niht godcund, sēo niht þe crist awōc:
O night, O Holy Night, O night divine!                         Lā niht, Lā Hāliġ Niht, Lā niht godcund!
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on February 19, 2016, 01:37:22 PM

________________________________________________
I was rather hoping for more comments on “Silent Night”
________________________________________________

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[ O]ne of the meanings given is indeed 'silent', so I learnt something...
__________________________________________________________



Funny thing Horsa but lately I, too, stumbled upon that overlap between the meanings of the Old English and Modern German word stille.  Many years ago I ordered a copy of Der Herr der Ringe, The Lord of the Rings in German, from a bookshop um meines Deutsche zu üben*.  Only I noticed you get lines like: Es trat Stille ein, und aller Augen wandten sich Frodo zu. for “There was a hush, and all turned their eyes on Frodo” and »Stille!« sagt Gandalf. »Die Botschaft von diesem Unglück hätte zuerst dem Vater überbracht werden sollen.« for “‘Peace!’ said Gandalf. ‘The news of that grief should have been told first to the father.’”
   All of which reminded me of the version of the Christmas Day truce of 1915 I’m most familiar with: that it began when our Tommies heard the Germans singing Stille Nacht and, after giving them a round of applause and singing a carol back, a German chap popped over with a flag of truce and an invitation to share a bottle of schnapps, and matters developed therefrom.
   Then, only last year, at the beginning of an excerpt from The Lord of the Rings I’m still using to practise my Old English, I find that, “Quiet,” said Frodo. “I think I hear hooves again.” works out ( so far!) as: ‘Stille!’  cwæþ Frodo. ‘Iċ  þence iċ  híere hófas  ongéan.’ ( Though in this instance the German has »Pst!« machte Frodo. »Ich glaube, ich höre wieder Hufe.« I notice). Even more erroneous may be a line from chapter ten of Great Expectations I’m also practising on, where Pip/ the I-narrator says of Miss Havisham: iċ ræswode héo wæs ġíet sprecende tó hiere selfe, and hielt stille which may one day mean I thought she was still talking to herself, and kept quiet

All of which makes me wonder, since Ædmund is clearly fluent in both English and German, whether he sees twice as much familiarity when reading Old English than a fluent speaker of only one germanic language?  My German is good enough to see that sind is ‘are’ in both languages, and clearly Old English ġesund for ‘uninjured, in good condition, sound in health’ and Modern German gesund for ‘healthy, in good health, sound ( in wind and limb)’ and colloquially ‘well’ are related, that Modern German Kraft may mean ‘power’ much as Old English cræft also may, and of course there’s many others.** 

At the risk of straying back to Silent Night, however, I wonder if you, David, were aware just how free the Modern English translation gets, in places? Only if you want to make an Old English rendition work better, you could always pinch what you like from the German wording and defend this on the grounds that you are being more faithful to the original. This is the version Wiki has:

Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
 Alles schläft; einsam wacht
 Nur das traute hochheilige Paar.
 Holder Knabe im lockigen Haar,
 Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!
 Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!
 
 Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
 Hirten erst kundgemacht
 Durch der Engel Halleluja,
 Tönt es laut von fern und nah:
 Christ, der Retter ist da!
 Christ, der Retter ist da!
 
 Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
 Gottes Sohn, o wie lacht
 Lieb’ aus deinem göttlichen Mund,
 Da uns schlägt die rettende Stund’.
 Christ, in deiner Geburt!
 Christ, in deiner Geburt!


Joseph Mohr, 1818. Our current translation was first published in 1859 in New York, it says.




* So now I can just walk into any clothing store in the German-speaking world and ask Wo ist der Elbenpanzer, bitte?, or saunter into an Elvish takeaway deep in the Black Forest and order Dreimal Lembas und ein Trinkhorn Miruvor, los! and then their kids’ll come out and... look at me.  Just like the real thing. 

** Another little curiosity of mine is whether, since English and Icelandic are the only two germanic languages still using the sound ‘eth’, whether we who speak them sound in any way old-fashioned to native speakers of continental germanic languages.  When we come out with things like “this thistle is thinner than that thistle” do we sound like something strayed from the far side of the Nibelungenglied? Or do academic linguists in Germany hear some ‘blast from the past’ when we open our ething mouths?  Or not, Ædmund?

Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Phyllis on February 21, 2016, 02:57:16 PM
Oh these are wonderful! I agree that it might be useful to take the translation from the original German as the English is a little free in places.

I also thought "uu" was used in Northumbrian based on eg the Northumbrian version of Caedmon's Hymn?

I am only just catching up with Gegaderung after another of my hiatuses (hiati? hiatopodes? excuse me) following starting a new job. 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on February 22, 2016, 05:51:34 PM

I think it is a wonderful idea to have an old Engish translation of Silent Night from the original German version as well as one from the modern English version.  I’ll leave Stille Niht for that and change my version to Swīge Niht.

I believe that O Holy Night was originally French so maybe we could also have a translation from that version.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on February 26, 2016, 04:03:27 PM



I have now added a second verse to O Holy Night – please comment.
I changed the last word in line 6 from bricð to þurbricð. It seemed more appropriate although I could have done without the extra syllable.
 
O Holy Night                                                               Lā Hāliġ Niht

O Holy Night! The stars are brightly shining,             Lā Hāliġ Niht! Þā steorran beorhte scīnaþ
It is the night of the dear Saviour’s birth.                  Hit is sēo niht þæs lēofan Hælendes byrde
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.                 Lange liþ eorþe in gylte and dwilde weorþaþ.
Till he appeared and the spirit felt its worth.              Oð hē cōm and se gāst onġeat his weorð.
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices,                   Yð tōhopan se wēriġ weoruld blissaþ
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.             For ġeond niwe and wuldorful morgen þurbricð
Fall on your knees! Oh, hear the angel voices!           Feall on þīn cnēo! Lā, hīer þāra engla drēamas!
O night divine, the night when christ was born;        Lā niht godcund, sēo niht þe crist awōc:
O night, O Holy Night, O night divine!                       Lā niht, Lā Hāliġ Niht, Lā niht godcund!
 
Led by the light of faith serenely beaming,                 Þæt  lēorht ġelēafan lǣdde smolte beamaþ,
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand.              Mid glōwendum heortum wē standaþ be His cradole.
O’er the world a star is sweetly gleaming,                  Ofer þǣre eorþe steorra swētlīċe glisnaþ,
Now come the wisemen from out of the Orient land.  Nū cumaþ þā witan of ūt þǣm Ēastum  lande.
The King of kings lay thus lowly manger;                   Se Cyning cyninga swā lege hēanliċum binne;
In all our trials born to be our friend.                         In ealle ūre earfoðe awōc ūre frēond tō bēonne.
He knows our need, our weakness is no stranger,     Hē cnāweþ ūre nīed, ūre lēwsa is nā uncūða,
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!                 Lōc nū ēower cyning! Ǣtforan Him bugaþ hēanlīċe!
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!                 Lōc nū ēower cyning! Ǣtforan Him bugaþ hēanlīċe!
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 01, 2016, 02:01:04 PM
Any special reason for Þā steorran beorhte scīnaþ rather than Þā steorran sind beorhte scīnende, David?  I wonder what your thinking is when faced with a choice between conventional Old English and strict fidelity to the original?


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 01, 2016, 07:04:48 PM
Any special reason for Þā steorran beorhte scīnaþ rather than Þā steorran sind beorhte scīnende, David?  I wonder what your thinking is when faced with a choice between conventional Old English and strict fidelity to the original?


Bowerthane, it is good to hear from you. I have no objection to your alternative. However, as you suggest, I think that my version is more natural old English so I would be looking for an advantage to change. My version has the advantages of fewer syllables so fits the tune easier, also the rhyming matches the modern English.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 04, 2016, 04:57:11 PM



I have now finished translating all three verses of “O Holy Night”
 
O Holy Night                                                                Lā Hāliġ Niht

O Holy Night! The stars are brightly shining,               Lā Hāliġ Niht! Þā steorran beorhte scīnaþ
It is the night of the dear Saviour’s birth.                    Hit is sēo niht þæs lēofan Hælendes byrde
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.                  Lange liþ eorþe in gylte and dwilde weorþaþ.
Till he appeared and the spirit felt its worth.               Oð hē cōm and se gāst onġeat his weorð.
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices,                    Yð tōhopan se wēriġ weoruld blissaþ
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.              For ġeond niwe and wuldorful morgen þurbricð
Fall on your knees! Oh, hear the angel voices!            Feall on þīn cnēo! Lā, hīer þāra engla drēamas!
O night divine, the night when christ was born;          Lā niht godcund, sēo niht þe crist awōc:
O night, O Holy Night, O night divine!                         Lā niht, Lā Hāliġ Niht, Lā niht godcund!
 
Led by the light of faith serenely beaming,                  Þæt  lēorht ġelēafan lǣdde smolte beamaþ,
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand.               Mid glōwendum heortum wē standaþ be His cradole.
O’er the world a star is sweetly gleaming,                   Ofer þǣre eorþe steorra swētlīċe glisnaþ,
Now come the wisemen from out of the Orient land.   Nū cumaþ þā witan of ūt þǣm Ēastum  lande.
The King of kings lay thus lowly manger;                    Se Cyning cyninga swā lege hēanliċum binne;
In all our trials born to be our friend.                           In ealle ūre earfoðe awōc ūre frēond tō bēonne.
He knows our need, our weakness is no stranger,       Hē cnāweþ ūre nīed, ūre lēwsa is nā uncūða,
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!                   Lōc nū ēower cyning! Ǣtforan Him bugaþ hēanlīċe!
Behold your King! Before him lowly bend!                   Lōc nū ēower cyning! Ǣtforan Him bugaþ hēanlīċe!
 
Truly he taught us to love one another,                       Soþlīċe Hē ūs lǣrde lufian ælc ōþer.
His law is love and His gospel is peace.                        His lagu bið lufu and His godspel bið frið.
Chains he shall break, for the slave is our brother,       Racentan Hē bryhð, forðǣm se þēow is ūre brōþor,
And in his name all oppression shall cease.                  And in his naman eall oferfrēċednes āswāmaþ.
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we,           Swēte ymenas drēames in þancfulum wynwerode hēaþ wē,
With all our hearts we praise His holy name.                 Mid eallum ūrum heortum wē heraþ His hāliġne naman.
Christ is the Lord! Then ever, ever praise we,               Crist is se Dryhten! Þon ā, ǣfter lofiaþ wē,
His power and glory ever more proclaim!                      His miht and wuldor ā māra ġebēodaþ!
His power and glory ever more proclaim!                      His miht and wuldor ā māra ġebēodaþ!
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 09, 2016, 02:31:11 PM
____________________________________________
Before him lowly bend! = Ǣtforan Him bugaþ hēanlīċe!
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[F]ewer syllables so fits the tune easier
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How’s this for irony?  When I’m translating lyrics I don’t aim for singability.  Long ago I decided that making lyrics actually singable was beyond my ability and I’d better stick to Getting The Meaning Right until I improved.  You’ll notice I took no account of syllables or stress in my rendition of the Hymn to Elbereth that I posted on the ‘folk rock’ thread, though I’m under the impression Professor Tolkien penned it as a metrically correct hymn, viz, it fits the Classical verse form and you could sing that in church, too.  The very first translation into Old English I ever attempted was some of Kate Bush’s lyrics in my teens, and I still practise using those and The Lord of the Rings on account of my lifelong battle with my poor memory.  I know all Kate’s lyrics by heart and, when reading The Lord of the Rings auf Deutsche, I rarely have to look up words I don’t know* because I can guess from memory!  Yet for the same reason, whenever I get a clear run at ‘improving’ my Old English, I spend most of my time relearning and reminding myself of most of what I forgot since last time, so overall improvement over the years has been incremental.

However [ insert emoticon for long, nervous cough here] if there’s one thing I’m tolerably certain of in this uncertain world, it’s that for on its own in Old English can and did mean ‘spatially before, in front of’ ( if not often) so, if it’s syllables you’re worried about, then For Him bugaþ hēanlīċe! ought to be quite sufficient.

Now that I make myself check, I notice that whilst my trusty old The Student’s Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon by Henry Sweet definitely lists for under that meaning, and gives the examples for eaxlum stód þǽs cyninges and weorþode híe for ealle menn, he adds in italics “These meanings are not W. [ = West Saxon]; they are probably the result of transliterating A. [ = Anglian] fore into for.

However, in that Old English Syntax ( ISBN 0-19-811935-6, Clarendon 1985) by Bruce Mitchell that by some minor miracle I’ve still got out on the long loan, he says “On for = ‘before’ ( temporal) in Gregory’s Dialogues see Timmer 1934, pp. 52-3. OED ( s.v. for) remarks that ‘in OE. for and fore seem to have been used indiscriminately as preps.’ And Wülfing ( ii. 339 and 354) observes that, while fore is less frequent than for in ‘Alfredian texts’ it does not differ from it in meaning or use...  One tendency, however, should be noted: a general preference for for immediately before its case and the use of fore in other positions.  Belden ( p. 61) puts it thus:

For and fore, distinct in Gothic.. are confused in Ags., especially in Bede. In the other texts read for this work [ Alfred’s Pastoral Care, Orosius, the Chronicles, Ælfric’s Homily and Grammar], though distinction of meaning is not firmly held to, there is a distinction in syntactical function: for is the preferred form, in most categories, for the preposition proper, immediately preceding its case, while fore is always used when the particle is removed from its case and more closely united with the verb.”       

In other words it looks like an adverb when it functions like an adverb. Otherwise it’s a preposition whose shades of meaning include the ‘spatially before, in front of’ one, albeit seldom.  For neither Mitchell nor any other authority he quotes says anything about this knock-off-from-Anglian business Sweet seemed to think important; and since I’ve noticed nothing in my 1987-impression Sweet to suggest it has undergone any significant revision since the 1896 first edition, whereas Old English Syntax was first published in 1985 ( which by Anglo-Saxon-scholarship standards must make it our answer to the discovery of cosmic gravitational waves, or at least the Human Genome Project) I’d be tempted to quietly ignore Sweet and use for in the requisite sense, if yer bleedin’ well feel like it.

Also, I can’t help but notice that Sweet also lists for in the sense ‘in the sight of, as regards’ and gives the exemplars ríce for worulde and módigode for his fæġernesse which can cover somewhat similar conceptual ground and, in your context, any ambiguity would only be to your advantage.  Then there’s foran too, it says here.

Likewise, what say you to *niþerbugaþ so as to prune two syllables off bugaþ hēanlīċe? Sweet gives a niþerbogen as ‘bent down’ which looks like the past participle of that very verb, and there’s at least half a dozen verbs built on that pattern.  It’s hardly your fault if some village idiot misses the intention of For Him niþerbugaþ!

Or have I gone wrong again?

One other thing: are you familiar with the book Is that a Fish in your Ear? by David Bellos? Only that sheds light on how professional translators do things. They are unanimous that the old saying that poetry is “that which is lost in translation” is a myth.  They can translate Alexander Pope into the style of France Prešere and vice versa, seemingly.  More to the point, though, if memory serves no professional translator attempts too strict a word-for-word translation because they know that, in one way or another, the grammar, syntactical conventions and idioms of the target language are forever hatching little conspiracies against that.  What they aim for is an authentic ‘feel’.  This is why the fact that for is “the most common preposition in Old English to express cause or reason” is the kind of thing I take mental ( and frantic ink) notes of, since  Old English Syntax is due back on the tenth and I haven’t a clue how I got away with renewing it, last time.  It’s the British Library that wants it back!


* If you, like I, are interested in how the translators handled the word “dwimmorlaik”, since Professor Tolkien was drawing upon his professional knowledge rather than the OED, then Dernhelm’s dialogue runs: «Fort mit dir, du abscheuliches Geistergeschöpf, Herr über Leichen! Laß die Toten in Frieden!».  Granted that the “dwimmor-” is from Old English dwimor for ‘spectre; illusion, delusion’ and the “-laik” is most likely a variety of Old English líc, which is poetically ‘living body’ but otherwise ‘corpse’ ( if memory serves this survives in “lychgate”, through which one enters a graveyard) then it looks as if the translators, Margaret Carroux and E-M von Freymann, were earning their money.







Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 09, 2016, 05:18:46 PM



Thanks Bowerthane. I like the words I used but if “For Him niþerbugaþ” has the same meaning lets go with that.
 
Can you do something with Silent Night, verse 2, line 3? I did wonder about dropping “þinum”.
 
I see that I have finished “O Holy Night” so I shall start “Hark the Herald Angels Sing” in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 11, 2016, 08:50:22 AM
 
I have now translated the first verse or “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”.
 
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
Peace on earth and mercy mild,                                Friþ on eorþe and milts mild,
God and sinners reconciled                                       God and gyltend ġesēmende
Joyful, all ye nations, rise,                                         Blīðe, eall ġē þeoda, rīsaþ,
Join the triumph of the skies;                                    Ðæt ōretlof rodores þēodaþ ;
With the angelic host proclaim,                                 Mid  þǣm engellic werode bēodaþ,
“Christ is born in Bethlehem.”                                  “Crist in Hlāfhūse wacnaþ.”
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                   Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste ,
 “Glory to the newborn King!”                                  “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 11, 2016, 02:38:51 PM

_________
in Hlāfhūse

_________


Ooooh, that was a cheeky bit of etymologizing David!  :D

Have you studied Hebrew?


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 11, 2016, 05:35:36 PM

_________
in Hlāfhūse

_________


Ooooh, that was a cheeky bit of etymologizing David!  :D

Have you studied Hebrew?


 
I’m sorry to disappoint you Bowerthane but I am neither that clever nor that educated. In Luke’s gospel the Anglo-Saxons used Hlāfhūs and hlāfes hūs. I do not think they translated from the Hebrew but from the Latin domus panis.
   
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 14, 2016, 02:21:24 PM
____________________________________________________________________________
Can you do something with Silent Night, verse 2, line 3? I did wonder about dropping “þinum”.
____________________________________________________________________________


Right, now that I come to have a proper look at “Radiant beams from thy holy face/ Torhte bēamas of þīnum hālgan ansīene” my first blush reaction was no, don’t drop the þīnum because it has a pleasing, personalizing effect which, unless several people disagree with me, I feel is integral to the sentiment the lyricist meant to express.  Now, upon cooler reflection, I still agree with myself on that.

Yet what about this for pruning syllables? Old English definitely has such a word as torhtmód for ‘illustrious, glorious’ as well as háliġdóm for ‘holiness, sanctity’ etc, háliġern ‘sanctuary’ and dear old háliġmónaþ for ‘September’ and maybe others.  Such adjective + noun kennings are nothing if not highly characteristic of Old English, so why not one or both of Torhtbēamas of þīnum hāliġansīene which saves you a syllable or two?

Unless of course there’s something I need to learn about improvising such words, or when not to. I’m not pretending the above is terribly scientific and I’d be grateful to hear your own thoughts on the propriety of improvising unrecorded words.

( So far I caught myself doing this only in one of the short verses in that LOTR chapter I’m using for practise, which at the moment goes:

Lá swancor swá wíþig-lǽl (http://www.bosworthtoller.com/020955)! Lá hlúttra þonne sweotwæter!
Lá hréod be þǽm cwicpóle! Fǽġer éadohtor!
Lá Éastertíma and sumortíma, and Éaster ongéan æfter!
Lá wind ofer þǽm wæterġefeall, and þá léafa hleahtor!’


Which may have begun to resemble:

O slender as a willow-wand! O clearer than clear water!
O reed by the living pool! Fair river-daughter!
O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!
O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves’ laughter


Where you’ll notice I plumped for cwicpól for ‘living pool’. This I did on the ever so erudite and professional grounds of, a) exasperation, b) it was late at night, and c) using the present participle as an adjective in that position seemed ungainly and unnatural to Old English, whereas cwicpól looks like the kind of thing the Old English would do.  Cross checking brought me to cwicfýr for ‘sulphur’, cwicbéam for ‘aspen’ and a cwichrerende for ‘moving alive, living’ amongst others, to stiffen my resolve.)




________________________________________________________________
I do not think they translated from the Hebrew but from the Latin domus panis.
 ________________________________________________________________



Thanks, that was interesting. Once I nosed about to see how much the Old English could have known of Hebrew, to draw the conclusion that even the best educated ones knew little beyond what a reflective person could deduce from the proper nouns in the Old Testament, for instance that the Canaanites spoke a language closely related to that of the Ancient Hebrews ( baal is ‘lord’ in both languages).  Also I found that those Anglo-Saxon pilgrims to Jerusalem who took the sea route could have heard Phoenician spoken ( as you may know, a Phoenician is just a Canaanite in a boat) since it was still a living language on the southern and eastern shores and some islands of the Mediterranean into Early Medieval times and, if memory serves, lingered in nautical terminology there after it died out.

My attempt to teach myself Hebrew got as far as mistranslating “rose of Sharon” as “daffodil of Sharon” when using The Song of Songs for practise. Yet it was fun trying: Hebrew is the only non-Indo-European language I’ve studied in any depth and it was a real expanding-headband experience to deal with a language that has no tenses, in that a Hebrew verb settles only whether its action is completed or uncompleted.  For whether it was washing or hanging out in the past, present or future, you look to an adverb.  The whole Semitic language family works like this, seemingly.

Most queer’n’disturbin’...










Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 14, 2016, 04:13:15 PM



Bowerthane, I think I will stay with my original on this. Your compounding of words seems to have cut down the number of words but only seems to loose one syllable.


I would not worry about your compounding. Early Germanic seems to have been very restricted on this but old English appears to have been much more liberal.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 20, 2016, 08:56:11 AM
 
I have now translated the first two verses of “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”.
 
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
Peace on earth and mercy mild,                                Friþ on eorþe and milts mild,
God and sinners reconciled                                       God and gyltend ġesēmende
Joyful, all ye nations, rise,                                         Blīðe, eall ġē þeoda, rīsaþ,
Join the triumph of the skies;                                    Ðæt ōretlof rodores þēodaþ ;
With the angelic host proclaim,                                 Mid  þǣm engellic werode bēodaþ,
“Christ is born in Bethlehem.”                                  “Crist in Hlāfhūse wacnaþ.”
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste ,
 “Glory to the newborn King!”                                  “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
 
Christ, by highest heav’n adored:                              Crist, ġeēaþmēded be hīehstum heofone
Christ, the everlasting Lord:                                      Crist, se ēceliċ Dryhten:
Late in time behold him come,                                   Sīþ in tīde sēoþ hine cuman,
Offspring of a virgin’s womb.                                     Tūdor of hrife fǣmnan.
Veilled in flesh, the Godhead see;                              Ġebehylod in flǣsce, sēoþ godhād:
Hail, the incarnate Deity:                                            Halettaþ, se ġeflæscoda  God:
Pleased, as man, with men to dwell,                          Ġelysted, swā mann, mid mannum wunian,
Jesus, our Emmanuel!                                                Iesus, ūre Emmanuhel!
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                   Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Michael Æðeling on March 20, 2016, 11:38:52 AM
David, this is outstanding. Christmas is going to be awesome this year - my daughters will never forgve me!

I am wondering if here is a particular metre used for "Hark!!"?
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 21, 2016, 01:56:17 PM

______________________
David, this is outstanding.
______________________

I'm enjoying this too, so don't get me wrong  :)  . But...


_____________________________________________________________________
Long lay the world in sin and error pining. Lange liþ eorþe in gylte and dwilde weorþaþ.
_____________________________________________________________________


It’s no use I still don’t get it.  As a rule weorþan means ‘happen, be made ( of peace), be fulfilled ( of God’s will); come into being, arise; become’, or at least that’s the gubbins of its entry in my The Student’s Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon by Henry Sweet.  And whilst I’m aware it’s capable of some subtle syntactical significations the Old English understood better than I do, I still can’t see how you get the meaning of ‘pining’ out of it. Anyhow shouldn’t it be weorþende not weorþaþ ( which looks like the imperative plural)?

Also liþ is the present tense which anyhow should be líþ ( I’m in the habit of using acute accents instead of macrons because my machine won’t let me use macrons consistently) if my grammars speak true.

Left to my own devices I’d’ve gone for something like Lange læġ eorþe on gylte and dwilde seofiende, using that handy seofian ‘sigh, lament’ verb I unearthed for “Mama misses her”/ Módor seofeþ be híe for one of my early versions of  Ryan Stone’s soliloquy in the Soyuz from Gravity, since I wasn’t confident that Old English missan meant much more than ‘miss ( mark); escape the notice of’.

Yet Linden rounded up the following suggestions on that thread, too:

___________________________________________________________________
for-þolian - go without, miss, lack (+ dative)
 þolian - to suffer lack or loss of something (gen.), to lose what one has, to fail to get what one desires; in many cases the loss or failure is the result of wrong either done or suffered by the subject of the verb, to forfeit, be (wrongfully) deprived of
 cwanian - to bewail, deplore, lament, mourn
 geomrian - to be sad, to sigh, groan, murmur, mourn, sorrow, lament, bewail

___________________________________________________________________


So Lange læġ eorþe on gylte and dwilde þoliende also looks like a contender ( although  Lange læġ eorþe on gylte and dwilde ġeomriende has poetic merits, wouldn’t you say?) granted that I’m right that pínian itself is out as it then meant ‘torture; afflict (mind)’ only, which strikes me as a bit too severe for modern ‘pine’, which seems to be a post-Chaucerian development.

So either something is amiss or, of course, I’ve joined all the wrong dots and you have really done something over my head.  I’d love to know which/ what it is!  What’s your thinking, David?


_________________________________________________________
Your compounding of words seems... only seems to loose one syllable.
_________________________________________________________


Ah, so you wouldn’t pronounce the final -e as a distinct syllable?  ( I’ve also developed the habit of treating diphthongs as disyllabic, but I can’t recall where I got that idea from.) 






_____________________________________________________________________________________________________   
The moral right of the author to identify footballers for the FBI, intellectual heroes of the twenty-first century, has been asserted.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 21, 2016, 05:13:54 PM
 


Starting with 
 
Long lay the world in sin and error pining.                 Lange liþ eorþe in gylte and dwilde weorþaþ.
 
I made a mess of the verbs – I did miss out the macron on līþ and in should have been in the past tense so læġ.
As for “weorþaþ”. That was an error for “weorpaþ”. I could not make up my mind as to whether it should a normal verb (of course it should have been the past tense), an infinitive or a present participle. I thought that I had plumped for the infinitive but, in fact I wrote the normal verb (wrong tense). Now I tend to the present participle. So maybe I should have written “ Lange læġ eorþe in gylte and dwillde weorpiende.”
 
I would pronounce a final “e”. Did I miscount the syllables?
 
I had expected you to complain that I translated Bethlehem but not Emmanuel. I wondered about these. It seems that the Anglo-Saxons tended to give the original Hebrew and to translate these. I was not prepared to do that. I thought that I found an example where Bethlehem only appeared in translation and where Emmanuel only appeared in the Hebrew. However I am now feeling I should use the modern English convention and not translate them.




I am wondering if here is a particular metre used for "Hark!!"?

Æðeling I’m afraid that I did not understand what you said. Can you explain it.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Michael Æðeling on March 22, 2016, 10:14:31 AM
I meant poetic metre, like 10, 8, 6, 7:

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/meter.html
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 22, 2016, 04:53:12 PM



I can assure you that if I did some good poetic metre that is pure coincidence. Poetry is a closed book to me.
 
Maybe you can start a new thread on stress. I am a simple soul so I always pronounce the following words as shown nū, se, tō, þū and wē. However I’m told that stress can change the length of the vowel but does not always do so.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 23, 2016, 02:16:43 PM

___________________________________________________________________________
Till he appeared and the spirit felt its worth.Oð hē cōm and se gāst onġeat his weorð.
___________________________________________________________________________


I’m a weeny bit puzzled as to why you bother with ongieten here, which certainly can mean ‘feel’ as well as ‘perceive’ and ‘recognize’ amongst other things, when Old English has our verb ‘feel’ as félan already in the modern meaning and ( I think importantly) no other meaning.

Since you are counting syllables I’m guessing this is a simple oversight. However, whilst it isn’t every day I grumble about Old English ( which I love to bits, can sleep with my sister and I will defend with a whip and chair) I confess to an occasional exasperation with the sheer range of meanings some Old English words, usually verbs, have.  Including three with no semantic or etymological connections to one another, sometimes ( that I can see).  This makes me anxious because of one of my ‘ten commandments’ I mentioned: always take a machete to any risk of ambiguity unless there is some special or compelling reason to do otherwise.  If memory serves the military call this the KISS principle: standing for Keep It Simple, Stupid.  This is why, when I came to the line in Sucker Punch “These are your weapons.  When you take them, you begin your journey. Your journey to freedom.” which at the moment runs Ðás sind þín wǽpenu.  Ðá nimest þú híe, þú onġinnest þín weġfór.  Ðín weġfór tó fréodóme. I plumped for weġfór rather than, say, weġ on its own, rád or two or three other choices, because weġfór only means ‘journey’.

Ġesíþas may recall that when Horsa posted his translation from Spongeblob Squarepants I got mǽġþ/ mǽġeþ for ‘maiden, girl’ etc. mixed up with ‘ġe-, mǽġþ for ‘power’. 

This is just the sort of slippery patch that makes me risk averse when rendering...


 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 23, 2016, 03:56:51 PM



Thanks Bowerthane. I never even thought of fēlan. So we can have
Oð hē cōm and se gāst fēlde his weorðes.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 28, 2016, 02:52:02 PM



This is the full translation of “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”.
 
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
Peace on earth and mercy mild,                                Friþ on eorþe and milts mild,
God and sinners reconciled                                       God and gyltend ġesēmende
Joyful, all ye nations, rise,                                         Blīðe, eall ġē þeoda, rīsaþ,
Join the triumph of the skies;                                    Ðæt ōretlof rodores þēodaþ ;
With the angelic host proclaim,                                 Mid  þǣm engellic werode bēodaþ,
“Christ is born in Bethlehem.”                                  “Crist in Bethleheme wacnaþ.”
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                   Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste ,
 “Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
 
Christ, by highest heav’n adored:                              Crist, ġeēaþmēded be hīehstum heofone
Christ, the everlasting Lord:                                      Crist, se ēceliċ Dryhten:
Late in time behold him come,                                   Sīþ in tīde sēoþ hine cuman,
Offspring of a virgin’s womb.                                     Tūdor of hrife fǣmnan.
Veilled in flesh, the Godhead see;                              Ġebehylod in flǣsce, sēoþ godhād:
Hail, the incarnate Deity:                                            Halettaþ, se ġeflæscoda  God:
Pleased, as man, with men to dwell,                          Ġelysted, swā mann, mid mannum wunian,
Jesus, our Emmanuel!                                                Iesus, ūre Emmanuhel!
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                   Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                    “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
 
Hail! the heaven-born Prince of peace!                     Halettaþ! se hēofonbyrde Ðēoden friðes!
Hail! The Son of Righteousness!                              Halettaþ! Se sunu rihtwīsnesse!
Light and life to all he brings,                                   Lēoht and līf tō ealle hē bringþ,
Risen with healing in his wings                                 Astigen mid hǣlinge in his fiðrum
Mild he lays his glory by,                                          Milde hē legþ his wuldor be,
Born that man no more may die:                              Awōc þe mann ne mā mōt sweltan:
Born to raise the sons of earth,                                Awōc þā suna eorðe tō fēdanne,
Born to give them second birth.                               Awōc him oþer byrde tō giefanne,
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing,                                  Heorciaþ! Singaþ Þā Englas Ǣrendfæste,
“Glory to the newborn King!”                                   “Wuldor tō nīġawacodum Cyninge!”
 
Now I am translating In the Bleak Midwinter. To give you time to digest the translations I will do that in two parts and will wait at least a week before giving the first part.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on March 30, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
Here David and all concerned: this idea just popped up in my head.  Your ( David’s) Christmas carols aren’t enough to fill a booklet on their own*, but surely there’s other Christmas-related material in Engliscan Ġesíþas/ Wiþowinde’s archives, written and graphic, to make up some sort of Christmas gift book that we ġesíþas could give to our kith, kin and anybody we’re trying to interest in Anglo-Saxon England.  Also the Ġesíþas could raise some revenue selling a few from the website.  If my days in advertising are anything to go by, there is some truth on the old adage that the Christmas-buying public will buy anything ( as the ‘sales director’ in a young enterprise ‘company’, some schoolfriends and I even succeeded in selling ‘Christmas Snow’ – which was no more than the polysomethine sawdust we swept up after making the main product).   

Seriously though, we’ve nine months to think through such a project and make it genuine and tasteful.  There’s a typefont called Aucion Light which I always think is the best compromise between clarity and Dark Age/ Early Medieval palaeography, so my vote would be for setting David’s translations ranged centrally inside an inhabited-vine-scroll-type Old English border ( but not one too wide or dark – that’s heavy on the eye).  Likewise, a two-tone booklet printed in a dark brown and tints thereof upon a beige-or-whatever paper would keep the cost down whilst remaining evocative of the Old English originals. Then we could put some fun stuff for kids at the back: line drawings to crayon in, dot-to-dots, LOL cartoons, one of Phyllis's stories with some giggly illustrations etc. and somebody to my certain recollection, has translated Winnie the Poo into Old English.**

Or better than me rattling on, suggestions from my fellow ġesíþas here could improve the above out of all recognition.

Hwæt cwæþ ġé?



*Yet.  Though you’ve got nine months to get on a roll, right?
**And what about a re-write of Dickens’ A Christmas Carol set in Old England? With which Old English figures might one substitute the ghosts?  What would you call Scrooge? Groatwin? Tightgeld? Bloodstan? Fastfist?

Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Phyllis on March 30, 2016, 08:30:41 PM
Liking the idea Bowerthane!

It will take me that long to translate a kiddie story too, but willing to give it a go!

I was just thinking the other day we could do with some "stuff" to sell for a bit of fund raising. What about any Anglo Saxon recipes? Can we adapt the Spiced Oat Cake one from West Stow?


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on March 30, 2016, 10:23:11 PM



I was thinking of retiring after translating In The Bleak Midwinter. However I rather like Bowerthane's idea and with Phyllis on board how can I refuse. Nevertherless I would prefer to keep this thread for just the carols. Can you start a new thread for your project - it would be confusing to have the other aspects also on this thread.


It would be nice to give you 12 carols by the end of November but I don't think that I can manage that. Probably I could manage 8 or 9.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on April 04, 2016, 02:15:30 PM
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Can you start a new thread for your project - it would be confusing to have the other aspects also on this thread
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Quite right David, I’ll calm down and see about ‘editing’ this little exchange for a bespoke thread for the general chat forum, right?

Back to business:

____________________________________________________________________________
O night divine, the night when christ was born;  Lā niht godcund, sēo niht þe crist awōc
_____________________________________________________________________________

Have you caught the lack of a capital C on crist yet? Also, shouldn’t Lā niht godcund be Lā niht godcundu granted that a) it’s rare but possible to use a lone adjective postnominally in Old English but, b) when you do, it should always take the strong declension?  But there’s lots of things I don’t know or misunderstand about Old English so by all means put me straight, if not.



___________________________________________________________________________
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn. For ġeond niwe and wuldorful morgen bricð
___________________________________________________________________________


Shouldn’t that be For ġeond niwe morgen and wuldorfulum bricð ( granted I’ve got the strong masculine declension right for this postnominal adjective)? I’m under the impression it’s not strictly true that second and third etc. adjectives always follow the noun as in “good men and true”, but it’s more characteristic of Old English and has a certain poetic power in this context, I’d say.



_________________________________________________________________________________
Now come the wisemen from out of the Orient land.  Nū cumaþ þā witan of ūt þǣm Ēastum lande.
_________________________________________________________________________________


This sort of thing niggles me.  In this context, certainly, I would not bother with the ūt
and I feel one ought not to do, generally.  As you may well know better than I, Western languages become less terse and inflectional over the centuries and more ‘bitty’, as I have developed the habit of calling the growing tendency towards phrasal verbs, cobbling together prepositions and just plain tautology as one gets towards the present.  In our own day we’ve heard ‘drain’ become ‘drain off’ as if draining went anywhere else, but it’s all of a piece with ‘fall down’ or ‘lift up’ so ‘from out of’ is a pretty typically modern circumlocution that I don’t think is characteristic of the Old English.  Also, since you are syllable conscious, why not Nú cumaþ þá witan of þǽm Éastlande? My Sweet lists éastland and éastdǽl as if proper nouns, with capital Es in the definition, as synonyms for “the East” ( only, in the case of éastland which is why I prefer it here to éastdǽl which may also mean just “the eastern quarter”) the former of which I’ve used in my translation of In the House of Tom Bombadil because it’s an improvement on John Cleese’s line “We have come from the East” from the opening scene from Life of Brian that I posted on this forum two Christmases ago, that anyhow should have been éastdǽle:   

   
Wítega 2:               Wé sind steorwigleras.
Wítega 3:               Wé ǽr cómon of þǽm Eástdǽl.
Mandí:                   Is þes sume ġecynd gamene?
Wítega 1:               Wé willaþ tó herianne þone lýtling.
Wítega 2:               Wé sculon áġiefan hine mannrǽden.
Mandí:                   Mannrǽden!!  Ġé sind eallan ondruncod, ġé sind.  Hit is fúl.  Út!


However, I’d be grateful to read your own ‘take’ on this sort of thing because my nerve has been known to slip when terse and highly inflected Old English is on a collision course with an author’s or lyricist’s choice of words.  In another excerpt from
The Lord of the Rings I’m practising on Haldir says: “‘You feel the power of the Lady of the Galadhrim,’ he said. ‘Would it please you to climb with me up Cerin Amroth?’” Since I don’t worry about word-order before I’ve got the meaning right, this still clunks along as “Ðú félest þæt ríce þǽre Hláfdiġan þǽm Galaþrim,’ hé cwæþ.  ‘Ġeweorþen inc mid mé tó climbanne [ up] Cerin Amroþ?’ because were this just about any writer but Professor Tolkien I’d drop the ‘up’ faster than you can say ‘pleonasm’.  Haldir hasn’t opened a manhole and they aren’t inveigling themselves into the Royal Enclosure at Ascot, so where else could the bleedin’ “climb” be going? 
   Only in this instance, I suppose, it goes against the grain to make free with the choice of word of the Author of the Century, who forgot more about Old English than I’ll ever learn!  FTLOG somebody tell me I’m getting lost in a quibble, here...

   
For another instance, there’s a line in a Rock lyric I’m having fun with, “Fall back down to where you’re from”.  As one would expect of the Rock world, this is a pretty typical example of those cobbled-together circumlocutions I mention.  Now Old English fram-cynn can mean ‘origin’ amongst other things so I’m fairly sure they would have put it Eftfiel þé fram-cynne and maybe so should I.  Yet pleonasm is a legitimate means of achieving stylistic or artistic effect, and in the case of verse may be used to fit the metre or to fit syllables to notes.  I count seven syllables in both “Fall back down to where you’re from” and Eftfiel þé fram-cynne so maybe I’m sorted, but what do other ġesíþas make of the cost to artistic effect and the likely intentions of the lyricist?  Does the Old English give you any ‘feel’ of the original, still?

   Are there any guidelines for disentangling tautology and pointless pleonasm from those intended by the wordsmith, I wonder, or must we always be at the mercy of our common sense, personal taste and what our gut tells us for where the tipping point lies?

_________________________________________________________________
I had expected you to complain that I translated Bethlehem but not Emmanuel.

_________________________________________________________________


  Well, strictly speaking of course proper nouns should usually, and many say always, be left alone.  Yet if there is some special reason for monkeying about with them then consistency rules would dictate that they should all be treated alike.  By lucky chance I’m reading Matthew Polly’s American Shaolin at the moment*  which well exemplifies good, standard editorial practice in this. As a rule he transcribes all the Chinese vocabulary using pinyin, “the approved system of the People’s Republic of China” for “the romanization of the Chinese language” and puts them all in italics, makes exceptions for familiar and therefore naturalised words of Chinese origin such as Confucius, Canton and Hong Kong that go upright, then uses his discretion to spell ‘kung fu’ as ‘kungfu’ partly because that too is a naturalized English word and Polly knows it’s a nonsense to spell it as two words but not ‘Shaolin’ as ‘Shao Lin’, partly because his darling spellchecker kept trying to turn the ‘fu’ into the f-word.   ( Companies come all the way from Canary Wharf for silly old me to dig them out of the poo that spellcheckers can drop you in, or otherwise rescue copy mangled by God’s Wonderful Computer or by some witless prick from IT, one of whom did a runner before I entered the building). 

   Yet it’s really a question of making our minds up what we’re trying to achieve, here, and how seriously we’re taking ourselves.  If we’re just having fun rather than doing a job of work, the bottom line is we can please ourselves.    
   My purely personal answer is that I don’t take myself wholly seriously when translating Old English ( or most of the rest of the time, come to think of it) because I know my abilities are not at the professional level.  Only as or if I seriously feel I’m hitting the professional mark do I see if I can’t ‘shape up’ and make a wholly professional job of work of it; whereupon I would start getting picky about consistency rules and whether, in all poker-faced sobriety, I had any honest-to-goodness grounds for making exceptions to them.  None include being privately pleased with my little self for a purely etymological ‘translation’ of a proper name, so it’s purely for fun that I translated “Heathcliff” as Heideklippe when using Kate Bush’s lyrics to practise my German (  too, so auf Deutsche the celebrated refrain goes Heideklippe, es gibt mich, Cathy, komm zu Haus und mir so kalt ist*).
   Yet at the opposite end of the scale ( can’t find the ruddy thing now!) I have, somewhere or other, an Old English rendition of Kate’s lyric to The Infant Kiss of which I’m a bit proud, because I’ve kept coming back to it over the years so I think it’s a rather polished performance. At any rate it once impressed a lady professor of Old English at the State University of California who asked for a sample of my work, and not just because she turned out to be an old Kate fan, too!  Yet if we are trying to achieve a translation as near as can be to how the Old English, themselves, would have done it then ‘opportunistic etymologizing’ ( if you’ll pardon the expression) would appear to be what the Old English did, viz using etymological translations available to them when it suited them, but not otherwise, would seem to be thoroughly in character.   
   Or in layman’s terms, we can do as we &*£!ing like.


---oo0oo---


* Did anyone catch that Rowan Atkinson film Johnny English II? You’d think that scene where the Shaolin monk pulled a rock along with his scrotum had to be comedy, right?  Well it’s all true.  Scrotally propelled rocks are the least of it.  The photographs in this book are not for the squeamish.  There’s a whole style called “iron crotch kungfu” whose honoulable masters get up in the morning and pummel their willies for half an hour before breakfast.  You could not make this up.

   Shudder to think what the nuns do.

** And not Heideklippe, es gibt mich, Cathy, komm zu Haus und ich so kalt bin. I’ll let Ædmund have fun explaining why that old gaffe has kept native German speakers choking on their chuckles since forever.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 05, 2016, 12:21:20 PM



Bowerthane you have given me a lot to consider.
 
Firstly I do not mind your venture being in Old English Language. I just did not want it on the Carols thread as there are still several carols to come. Also if anyone is commenting on one of the translations, which is not the latest, can you tell me which carol it is.
 
1.      The missed capital C was an error. I am trying to follow the original as far as capitals are concerned. The exception is that I am starting each new line with a capital.
2.      For “night divine” I would have put the adjective first in both languages. I thought that the reverse must have a special meaning so I kept it in the translation.
3.      I agree that godcund should be a strong adjective but “-u” and not “-u” is complicated. I defer to Fulk on this who says about adjectives in standard West Saxon “Those formed with heavy suffixes ending in two consonants, such as -cund, -fæst, - fald, -full are inflected in the same way as heavy monosyllabic stems, so that, for example, -u is missing in the feminine nominative singular and the neuter nominative and accusative plural”
4.      I am happy with your change of “niwe and wuldorful morgen bricð” to “niwe morgen and wuldorfulum bricð” except “niwe” should be “nīwe”. Missing the “-um” was a careless slip. I did not know the rule about multiple adjectives. It reminds me about the rule for multiple subjects which I try to write in different ways for clarity. How does that rule work if there are also multiple objects?
5.      I did wonder about the “ūt” and “Ēastland”. I was a bit worried that Ēastland might mean the Balkans but did not rule it out for that reason. I went for my option as it keeps the line to 13 syllables, but I do not mind dropping the “ūt”
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 07, 2016, 05:00:06 PM



I have now translated the first two verses of In the Bleak Midwinter.
 
In the Bleak Midwinter                                                            In Ðǣm Ǣblǣcum Midwintra
 
In the bleak midwinter, frosty wind may moan,                      In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra, forstiġ wind cwiðe.
Earth stood hard as iron, water like a stone;                           Eorðe stōd heard swā isen, swā stān wæter;
Snow had fallen, snow on snow, snow on snow,                    Snāw hæfde dropen, snāw on snāwe, snāw on snāwe,
In the bleak midwinter, long ago.                                            In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra, forlonge .
 
Our God, heaven cannot hold him, nor earth sustain;            Ūre God, heofen ne mæġ hine healdan, ne fēt eorþe:
Heaven and earth shall flee away when he comes to reign.     Þā oðflēoþ heofon and eorþe þā hē cymþ tō rīċsianne.
In the bleak midwinter a stable place sufficed                         In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra faldstede ġenugde
The Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ.                                    Se Dryhten God Ælmihtig, Iesus Crist.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Osgyth on April 07, 2016, 06:23:52 PM
Following on from Bowerthane's suggestion about page decoration, I'd be happy to have a go at creating some border decoration or page illustrations if anyone would like...
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on April 11, 2016, 02:21:48 PM
_______________________________
[Y]ou have given me a lot to consider.
_______________________________


Eft lá þé, Hġústun, or “Right back at you, Houston” as Matt Kowalski put it in Gravity.  That means I’ll need time to address many of the points you raise, but I think I can reply to two or three sooner.


Firstly, I’ve spotted this in The Bleak Midwinter:
___________________________
snāw on snāwe, snāw on snāwe,
___________________________


Surely that’s a slip for snāw ofer snāwe, snāw ofer snāwe?
           

_____________________________________________________
I am trying to follow the original as far as capitals are concerned
_____________________________________________________


Which original, French or English?  I would stick to conventional Modern English capitalization and make any discreet amendments to punctuation I thought advisable, even in the target or Old English version.  I’ve never known that to do any harm, whereas a proper noun lacking an initial capital could put readers’ noses out, not knowing whether it’s a modern typo or not.  Only if one were trying to ‘forge’ or give some kind of pictorial facsimile of how written Old English can really look would I stick to such funny little ways of theirs, as that.

Otherwise, I wouldn’t fear angry letters from Mary Whitehouse saying, “Ooh, I saw you editorializing with the typography and I was disgusted!”

_____________________________________________________________
2. For “night divine” I would have put the adjective first in both languages.
I thought that the reverse must have a special meaning so I kept it in
the translation.
_____________________________________________________________


I’m quite sure you should have listened to your gut on this one, David!  I’ve checked again with the French original and the two Victorian English translations and I’m sure “night divine” is an innovation brought in by the translator. Puzzling since the original has Noël which, since that’s clear enough in English anyway, makes me wonder what he thought he was doing.  My best guess is that Noël wasn’t so common in mid-Victorian times and, since postnominal adjectives are bog standard in French but can sound a bit sweet in English, John Sullivan Dwight thought he was reproducing the flavour of the original by other methods.  Or not because Noël isn’t a conscious gallicism in French anyway, leaving me with no special reason not to stick the adjective back before the noun and sod it.  Is what I say.

If sentimental reasons still call for any kind of purely literary flourish, why not a kenning of the kind we discussed?  My Sweet has godbót for ‘atonement made to the church’, godgimm for ‘divine gem’ and even a goddréam as a poetic term for ‘divine joy’, so I don’t see why you should render it godniht and prune a syllable or two.


_______________________________________________
How does that rule work if there are also multiple objects?
_______________________________________________


Ah, now I can’t tell you how glad I am you asked that!  Thanks to that Old English Syntax by Bruce Mitchell as well as by John McLaughlin – yes, two both with the same title – I’m still working my way through, having copied out a whole wodge of their copy in longhand ( !!!) along with another wodge of photocopies and a third again of the notes I took before they had to go back to the British Library, multiple objects ( and subjects) are right at the cutting edge of my current ability with Old English.  All the notes I took are still not in order, so lately I have been furiously cross-checking and looking things up for what follows because Mitchell really tripped me headlong.  Having been fooling around with Old English for over thirty years, I never so much as heard of such a rule, but here goes.   

Foolishly and carelessly I have omitted to note its provenance, but it looks like it’s from the Chronicle, this is the best exemplar given by a source I cannot rediscover for what I have developed the habit of calling the “detachable noun-phrases” peculiar to Old English:

Her Cynewulf benam Sigebryht his rices 7 West Seaxna wiotan for unryhtum dædum.

“Here Cynewulf and the council of the West Saxons deprived Sigebryht of his kingdom for bad deeds.”


Oh, yes.  This was when I had to believe my eyes.  This source acknowledges that this word order is wholly contrary to Modern English, where multiple agents need not affect the integrity of the subject and usually don’t.  Whereas it is “absolutely standard syntax in Old English” to detach the first element, let it govern the verb including by its number ( so here the verb is in the singular even though it’s Cynewulf and the West Saxon witan doing the depriving) and let the rest come, tagging along after the predicate... give or take any subordinate clauses which, in this instance, appears to follow the rest of the subject.  Your guess is as good as mine whether for unryhtum dædum’s position in the sentence is part of the rule, mere happenstance or some other blódig rule they don’t tell you about...

Why I’m wrestling with this is because I have to deal with a multiple subject and a multiple object in some dialogue from Sucker Punch. Briefing the action girls before they go over the top, the Wise Man says, “The German doctors and engineers have worked out how to send their fallen back to the front.  They’re using steam power and clockworks to keep them moving.” At the moment I’ve got this as: 

Ðá Ealdseaxna læċes ǽr áþohte tó eftcumenne hiera wæl þǽm orde and searocræftiġan.  Híe néotaþ stéam-miht tó behealdanne híe ástyrian and dæġmælweorc.”

The second sentence because, likewise, “a compound object can also be separated by one or more other sentence elements” it says here:

Hie... þone æþeling ofslogon, & þa men þe him mid wærun.

They... killed the prince and the men who were with him.

Awkwardly I have not ascertained whether this exemplar is set in stone, grammatically speaking, or merely an alternative.  So I’m still chasing that up albeit with a gloomy hunch that it is a regular rule.

I don’t know whether to hope or fear this will be news to you, too.

The good news is my beloved translation of The Infant Kiss wasn’t affected – phew! – and In the Trenches is the first action sequence with all the girls in it. One of the real women in my life gave me the extended version on Blu-Ray for Christmas, so it’s got the whole sword fight between Babydoll and the German general, Blondie stopping a brigade-level charge with one magazine ( firing from the hip in full view, it’s amazing) and not forgetting Rocket, the sassy one.  Played by actress Jena Malone who also played the axe-wielding Johanna Mason in Catching Fire, though maybe she’s better remembered for stripping naked in the lift.  Going up.  Ooh, she’s a poppet.





 

Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 12, 2016, 04:59:34 PM



To answer Bowerthane’s last reply:-
 
I am happy with “ snāw ofer snāwe” but what was wrong with “snāw on snāwe”?
 
I will switch “niht godcund” to “godcund niht”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 16, 2016, 08:55:06 PM



I have now translated all of In the Bleak Midwinter.
 
In the Bleak Midwinter                                                             In Ðǣm Ǣblǣcum Midwintra
 
In the bleak midwinter, frosty wind may moan,                       In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra, forstiġ wind cwiðe.
Earth stood hard as iron, water like a stone;                           Eorðe stōd heard swā isen, swā stān wæter;
Snow had fallen, snow on snow, snow on snow,                    Snāw hæfde dropen, snāw on snāwe, snāw on snāwe,
In the bleak midwinter, long ago.                                            In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra, forlonge .
 
Our God, heaven cannot hold him, nor earth sustain;            Ūre God, heofen ne mæġ hine healdan, ne fēt eorþe:
Heaven and earth shall flee away when he comes to reign.     Þā oðflēoþ heofon and eorþe þā hē cymþ tō rīċsianne.
In the bleak midwinter a stable place sufficed                         In þǣm ǣblǣcan midwintra faldstede ġenugde
The Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ.                                    Se Dryhten God Ælmihtig, Iesus Crist.
 
Angels and archangels may have gathered there,                    Englas and hēahenglas, hīe þǣr gadroden,
Cherubim and seraphim thronged the air;                               Cerabin and Seraphim lyfte þrungon;
But his mother only, in her maiden bliss,                                Ac his mōdor āna, in hiere mǣdenliċre blisse,
Worshiped the beloved with a kiss.                                         Weorþode þā drūte mid cosse.
 
What can I give him, poor as I am?                                        Hwæt mæġ iċ him ġiefan, swā eom iċ earm?
If I were a shepherd, I would bring a lamb;                            Ġif iċ wǣre scēaphierde, iċ bringe lamb;
If I were a Wise Man, I would do my part;                              Ġif iċ wǣre Wita, iċ doe dǣl mīnne;
Yet what I can I give him: give my heart.                               Ġiet hwæt mæġ iċ him ġiefan: ġiefe heorte mīnne.
 
Next I’m going on to God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Osgyth on April 20, 2016, 09:42:35 PM
Very much looking forward to that, "God rest ye merry gentlemen" and "The holly and the ivy" are a tie for my favourite carol.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on April 21, 2016, 02:23:13 PM
Right, now that I’ve found time to give your replies some proper attention, David, my response is as follows:

____________________________________________________________________
I defer to Fulk... “heavy suffixes ending in two consonants, such as -cund, -fæst, - fald, -full are inflected in the same way as heavy monosyllabic stems, so that, for example, -u is missing in the feminine nominative singular and the neuter nominative and accusative plural”
_____________________________________________________________________


Er, check.  Quite right. I was talking beallucas again.


________________________________
[W]hat was wrong with “snāw on snāwe”?
________________________________


Er... nothing.  Really :-[ .  Now I make myself check, I’ve reminded myself that on can and sometimes does mean ‘on’ for all that it usually means ‘in’.  In my case, this kind of mistake comes from the high priority I attach to avoiding ambiguity, giving me the fixed habit of using ofer for ‘on’ and clean forgetting that the Old English were less fussy.  This is how I train myself! So I’d still defend snāw ofer snāwe on that ground but without pretending there’s anything ungrammatical or unhistorical about snāw on snāwe, this time...

___________________________________________
Next I’m going on to God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.
___________________________________________

Ooh jeepers, great!  One of my favourites too.  I’d toyed with the idea of translating that one myself not long after you started this thread, but something else I’m trying to train myself to do is stop finding things to translate!  Even the script of Sucker Punch and the chapters from Dickens and Tolkien aren’t the only texts I’m ( still!)  fooling about with.  A month or two ago I found the script to Gravity online as well as to another of my all-time favourite films, the original 1967 Bedazzled with Peter Cook and Dudley Moore ( and not that poxy remake, hiss-boo-sucks).  Yet so far I have manfully restrained myself from touching them, putting them away “for later” as a Hobbit would say.         


( Would anyone recognise the following description of a Christmas carol or song?  Part of the lyric may include the words “born to be king of the Israelites” and there’s a chorus or refrain that sounds like Tchaikovsky’s tum ta-ta taa TAA taa tum taa tum-ti-taa, ta ta taa TAA ta-ta taa with possibly sleigh bells ringing. I’ve tried likely and unlikely combinations in Google and I’m beginning to think I imagined it.  Only I do like what I think I remember of it and shouldn’t mind seeing how it looks in Old English.)



Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Osgyth on April 22, 2016, 09:05:17 AM
Are you thinking of "I believe in father Christmas" by Greg Lake?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwqknq7nuI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwqknq7nuI)
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 22, 2016, 12:35:02 PM



 I hope to post the first part of "God rest ye merry gentlemen" at the week-end. However, the May issue of horsmūð is becoming my top priority.
 
"The Holly and the Ivy" is number 12 on my list. I would like to have 12 carols for Christmas so I should that far. I have about 20 carols in mind.
 
My first thoughts are for Christmas carols but we could then go onto songs such as “I believe in father Christmas”, “White Christmas”, “Jingle Bells” and “Mary’s boy child”.
 
I would like some advice for number seven on my list which is “Once in Royal David’s City”. My only spelling for David is the Anglian Dauid. Is there a West Saxon spelling such as Dafid and also is there a West Saxon spelling for Iesus (Jesus) such as Ġesus?
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 23, 2016, 08:18:00 AM
 
I was looking at “O Holy Night” this morning and was surprised to see that I had 
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.            For ġeond nīwe morgen and wuldorfulum þurbricð.
Originally I had all this in the nominative case but Bowerthane suggested that I had missed off  the –um  from wuldorful. I saw the “for” and so thought it should be in the dative but that would give
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.            For ġeond nīwum morgenne and wuldorfulum þurbricð.
 
 
However I think that in this case the “for” is a conjunction , not a preposition. Therefore I think everything should be in the nominative case. Also I put the verb at the end to rhyme with a later line. This did not happen so I would move the forward so that we have
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.            For ġeond þurbricð nīwe morgen and wuldorful.
 
I am told that there are some idiomatic locative cases that look as though they are mixing up the nominative and dative eg-  tō-morgen and  in-morgen.
You might think that these are just compounds where the stem is used. However, in contrast we do get tōdǣlde and tōgædere.
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on April 23, 2016, 12:27:24 PM

_____________________________________________________
Are you thinking of "I believe in father Christmas" by Greg Lake?
_____________________________________________________



Great scot, Osgyth you’re right, that’s ;D the one! Thank you. :-*

It says here Greg Lake was hacked off by the commercialization of Christmas too, so I even like the sentiment.  And I’m one of those Benighted Heathens doomed to Eternal Damnation in the Nether Darkness to boot.  God knows – pun-pun-pun? – how Christians feel about it.   

I’m sorely tempted to break my vow to stop finding things to translate and do this one, myself.  Or was your heart set on it, David? 

What if Osgyth tosses a coin: heads me, tails you?

***



One little niggle: is it just me who finds it hard to be sure quite what the line “God rest ye merry gentlemen” means?  Who thinks I’m right to guess that the “rest” is what the singers are wishing upon the merry gentlemen? Viz there’s an implied subjunctive “May God rest ye...” and nobody is bidding God to rest, or anything else?

I’m guessing that “God rest ye” is some set greeting or salutation from yesteryear, wishing somebody peace of mind generally, surviving now only in this lyric.

***


__________________________________________________________________
the Anglian Dauid. Is there a West Saxon spelling such as Dafid and also is there a West Saxon spelling for Iesus (Jesus) such as Ġesus?
__________________________________________________________________


Ah yes, isn’t as simple as one would expect is it?  Yet here at hand I do have a copy, but not a facsimile, of Abbot Ælfric’s Heptateuch edited by S. J. Crawford for the Early English Text Society in 1922, amongst other exemplars.  Chapter three of the former begins Seo þridde yld wæs ða wuniende oð Dauid, þone mæran cyning Abrahames cynnes. Yet later it’s Iesse wæs DAVIDES fæder and the flourish with Davides is Ælfric’s and/ or the copyist’s, so maybe the V is on the original.  I notice Ælfric also has NAVM, likewise in a bold flourish, for the prophet Nahum.  Then later there’s one David, Iessan sunu but against those there’s fram Dauide oð Daniele þam witegan. Dauid is gecweden fortis manum, followed by another Dauid
   Also, in a Mercian hymn in Henry Sweet’s Old English Reader, there’s in húse Dáviðes cnehtes his and a Kentish psalm that opens with Dávid wæs háten, diormód hæleð, spelt twice more the same way but once as Dáuid
   So even if the V isn’t merely a transcription error ( or another spellchecker on its merry little quest for chaos) I’m guessing it’s still a U written the old-fashioned way and not a modern V, if only because Ælfric spells ‘Africa’, Affrica.       

The good news, I suppose, is that from a historical point of view you are within your rights to spell ‘David’ with a V in Old English, silently letting laymen use the modern pronunciation and experts worry about the historical one.  It looks as if the Old English pronounced Dauid as a diphthong, doesn’t it?

Ælfric spells ‘Jesus’ as Iesus, once for the Jesus ( “Iesus” wæs gehaten ure Hælend on life”) and once for Jesus ben Sirach ( ac Iesus hi gesette, Siraces sunu). Yet elsewhere I’ve definitely seen Ihesus, but I’ve never seen *Ġesus.  Once Ælfric uses Iesu in a Latin quote, which can be used for effect as Kate Bush did in the line “They read me Gurdjieff and Jesu” in Them Heavy People.

Also I note that Ælfric spells ‘Jerusalem’ as Hierusalem four times and no other way, and the excerpt from King Alfred’s Curia Pastoralis in Sweet’s Reader has Hierusalém seven times.  Maybe this is what the Franks Casket is trying to say, though as I read the runes it’s either Hierusllum or Hierucclum or something else. 

‘Bethlehem’ Ælfric spells as Bethleem on its lone appearance. Yet cross checking with his homily on the Nativity of the Innocents also in Sweet’s Reader, there’s on þǽre Iúdéiscan Bethleém and others, all consistently Bethleém.  I’ve come across these double vowels with a macron over the second one in proper nouns of Hebrew origin ( Isaác for instance) before, so I’m presuming the editors put them there to represent something real.  I suspect the Old English didn’t know the difference between Hebrew’s consonantal Alef ( a kinda glottal stop without the glottal), Hebrew , a plain H, and Heth which is like the CH in Scottish ‘loch’, German ‘mochte’ or the H in the Hebrew name, Nahum.

‘Mary’ is Marian three times and no other way. Yet I note that all three are dative formations: feower bec kyþað hu Crist com to mannum of Marian ðam mædene and þe he of Marian genam and gecynde of Marian innoðe. So it might be worth cross checking, just to be on the safe side ( though ‘Eve’ is once Evan in the nominative for some reason, since Hebrew ‘Eve’ has no -n, it’s Hevva – then Ælfric spells it Eue as well).  His homily to John the Baptist, which I also have in Sweet’s Reader, also has ǽr hé ácenned wæs of Marían and his one on the Nativity of the Innocents has mid Marían his méder so I suppose that form, whatever it is, ought to take a macron over the I.

‘Joseph’ Ælfric spells as Ioseph twice and no other way in the Heptateuch.  In his Nativity of the Innocents, however, there is a Iósepe three times and a Ióseph once.

In the same homily ‘Nazareth’ is spelt Nazaréth. Yes with the TH, not thorn or eth. God cnǽwþ.

I’m guessing ‘Herod’ is Herodes as this appears twice  ( 7 Herodes acwealde ealle þa litlan cild* and þæt wæs Herodes cining 7 Pilatus ealdormann), and several times as Herodes in those homilies of his, so it doesn’t seem to be a genitive form and -e alone was a feminine declension in the singular when I last thought I understood it.  I notice that John the Baptist and John the Apostle are both Iohannes and Ælfric’s homilies spell it Ióhannes many times quite consistently. 
   Just to be awkward, however, there’s a cyninge Herode and a his fæder Herode in the Nativity of the Innocents.

‘Christ’ is consistently Crist in dozens of places including the compounds Antecrist and cristendom.  With equal consistency, all my other exemplars spell it Críst and an excerpt from King Alfred’s translation of Orosius in Sweet’s Reader has crístendóm, and Wulfstan’s address to the English has ǽr antecrístes tócyme.

With some relief  I also note there’s a þæt Israhela folc, which I’ve cross checked with ond eall þá heargas Israhéla folces wǽron átíefrede on þǽm wáge from the Curia Pastoralis, and a tó Israhéla-land in Ælfric’s homily on the Nativity of the Innocents as well as an on Israhéla þéode. This latter I also had from another Old Testament extract I’ve forgotten about but definitely made sure of, hence the diacritics. Yet I’ve also found an and eft be útgonge Israéla folces of Ǽgypta londe, without the H, in Bede’s EH a Gebledsad Dryhten God Israél in a Mercian hymn ( this Sweet doesn’t dot the Gs), then a þe féowertig géara áfedde Israhéla folc on wéstene, with the H, in Ælfric’s homily on John the Apostle.
   So it’s not just on Iúdéa lande and Ebreos all the time ( elsewhere I nailed an Israhéla god for “god of Israel” too).


So.  That’s that cleared up.



* This sentence begins Ða comon þri ciningas to Criste mid lacum of eastrice feorran, if that’s any use, now.





________________________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to be identified by stylistic aberrations in the Codex Amiatinus  has been asserted.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Phyllis on April 23, 2016, 06:26:47 PM
I was told that the phrase was "God rest ye merry, gentlemen" as I wish you to be merry through the grace of God...

Don't know if it's true...
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 24, 2016, 09:39:42 AM



The title of this carol was a nightmare. Firstly what is the role of God in this sentence. I decided that whatever it was it should go into the nominative case. Next which were rest are we talking about. I decided that it was the one from the French rester, not the one from the old English restan. Then ye is an antiquated you in the nominative case whereas I was thinking about putting it in the accusative. Finally should merry gentlemen be in the accusative or nominative, fortunately these appear same.
Finally I was torn between God Lǣte Ēow Blīðe Burhmenn Wunian and God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Blīðe Burhmenn.
Maybe Bowerthane or Osgyth can sort this out. Otherwise I am reluctant to include this in my 12 carols for Christmas so I am considering a replacement at 13.
 
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen                                               God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Blīðe Burhmenn

God rest ye merry Gentlemen                                                 God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ blīðe burhmenn
Let nothing you dismay                                                          Ne lǣtaþ nāht swearcaþ ēow
Remember Christ our Saviour                                                Ġemunaþ Crist ūre Hǣlend
Was born on Christmas day                                                   Wōc on Cristesmæssan dæġe
To save us all from Satan’s power                                          Ūs eall fram Satanes ġewealde tō nerianne
When we were gone astray.                                                    Ðonne wē wandrodon.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
I hope to give the rest of the translation next week end.
My aim is to translate for following 12 carols for the booklet.
1.      Silent Night
2.      O Holy Night
3.      Hark the Herald Angels Sing
4.      In the Bleak Mid Winter
5.      God Rest You Merry Gentlemen
6.      O Come All You Faithful
7.      Once in Royal David’s City
8.      Away in a Manger
9.      Joy to the World
10.  O come, o come Emmanuel
11.  It Came Upon a Midnight Clear
12.  The Holly and the Ivy
13.  O Little Town of Bethlehem
I am very happy for anyone to join in translating other carols or Christmas songs.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Osgyth on April 24, 2016, 10:22:20 AM
I started typing this before David's translation popped up, so excuse the fact it overlaps somewhat.

Well looking at the wiki entry for "God rest ye merry gentlemen" it says that "rest" is a 16th/17th century way of saying "keep/remain as", and "merry" meant "prosperous/pleasant".  So I'm thinking the line means "God keep you gentlemen prosperous and happy."

The wiki entry says "The transitive use of the verb "rest" in the sense "to keep, cause, to continue, to remain" is typical of 16th to 17th century language.  The phrase "rest you merry" is recorded in the 1540s."

Re the commercialization of Christmas, Tom Lehrer's Christmas Carol always makes me smile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZR3lJobjw " (which includes the line "...God rest ye merry merchants may you make the yuletide pay.") 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 25, 2016, 10:11:33 AM



Thank you Osgyth for that insight. Maybe I can just change blīðe into ġesǣliġ. However I still feel that I am floundering on this one.
 
I have really enjoyed translating the carols but God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen seems to be a carol too far. Unless someone can sort it out quickly I think that I will post rest of it before the end of the week so that I can move on.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on April 25, 2016, 02:41:54 PM
Right, well on Sunday afternoon I got a second clear run at sorting through my notes-and-that from Old English Syntax by Bruce Mitchell. 

First and foremost I have now a little supplement to my last Crimbo word hunt. I found four more ‘Marians’, one on line 774 of Elene that goes ond þurh Marian in middangeard, another in the Blickling Homilies on þære halgan Marian hus on þæt þe heo hie inne reste, and a third in Ælfric’s homilies þæt his clæne lif þæs clænan mædenes Marian gymde.  The fourth is also from the Blickling Homilies and also appears to be a nominative, Ic þe halsige nu, Drihten, for þinre þeowene, Sancta Marian... so the -ian would seem to be normative. 

Famous last words...   

None of these exemplars have diacritics as the only shortcoming of Bruce Mitchell’s Old English Syntax is that it doesn’t use any.

There’s two ‘Galilees’, both in Ælfric’s homilies, only one is in the dative ic eow eft gamete on Galileiscum earde, the other is an adjective Ge Galileisce weras.  The bad news is I’ve photocopied a page, here, I’d already written out by hand. ::) Grr!

I found two more ‘Davids’ in the Pastoral Care, both with a U Se ilca Dauid þe forbær þæt he þone kyning ne yfelode... Se ilca Dauid...

There’s three ‘Stephanus’ -es from another of Ælfric’s homilies, þurh Stephanus slege, all spelt the same.  But was Boxing Day also the Feast of Stephen before 1066, I wonder?  I’ve just realised I didn’t check for my kiddies’ book, and my characters go on a hunt “in honour of St Stephen” that day.

There’s a Bethleem in another. Mitchell gives only references like “ÆCHom i. 34.14” and I didn’t copy the page that explains them, so I can’t always reference these exemplars any better. 

There was many a Crist, Herodes a few times all in the singular and an Israhela or two, plus one Hierusalem from the Paris Psalter.  However, there is one Herodus not in a Latin quote but the Chronicle, Her swealt Herodus from him selfum ofstidoc, end of photocopy.   



The other thing is I did not ( repeat not) get the idea that separating  multiple objects was a fixed rule from Bruce Mitchell’s Old English Syntax after all.  In fact, Mitchell has this to say:


“C. THE SPLITTING OF GROUPS

“§1464. Here we are concerned with groups joined by conjunctions such as MnE ‘Tom and Jack and all the boys came’, ‘Tom came, and Jack and all the boys’ and ‘Then came Tom and Jack and all the boys’; on examples like Lch ii. 180.28 do on clað, ofersmit mid ele lege on þone magan, see §1576. These three patterns all appear in OE.  But the ‘split’ construction seen in the second is much more common than in MnE, partly no doubt because of the variety of element order possible there, but even more ( in my opinion) because of a dislike of ‘heavy’ groups; see below.  The split element can be said to be essential to the meaning, but not for the grammar, of the sentence. As Biswas ( Journal of the University of Gauhati, 26-7, no. 1 ( 1975-6), 75) says, it ‘may be withdrawn without affecting the structure as a whole or dissolving it. In fact, the split elements are semantic components only.’  On examples like BlHom 91.32 blodig wolcen mycel see §169.

“§1465. Such splitting is most frequent with the conjunctions and either alone, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 554.7 Ðu yfela ðeowa and sleac, or with samod or eac, e.g. ÆCHom i. 490.28 Ure Drihten ferde [ to probably, but this photocopy’s dark in the gutter] sumere byrig... and his gingran samod...

“§1466. When the divided group serves as a subject, complement, or direct object, of its clause, the separation can be by a verb ( group) alone, e.g. ÆCHom i. 62.31 ... eower mod is awend and eower andwlita; by an infinitive, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 462.2 ... þæt he ne mæg [ his probably, but it’s in the gutter again] gytsunge ðeowian, and Criste samod; by a participle, e.g. ÆCHom [ Gutter again!] 202.21... wearð micel ðunor gehyred and stemn; or by a verb and other elements, e.g. ÆCHom i. 334.6 ... þæt heora bliss ðe [ possibly mara but it’s too dark to be sure] sy, and lufu to heora Drihtne. With adjectives and genitives, the separation can be by noun alone, eg. ÆCHom ii. 554.7 ( §1465) and ÆCHom i. 346.14 Godes lufu and manna, or by a noun and other elements, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 354.21 Maran cyle ic geseah and [ something -yrsan] and ÆCHom ii. 446.5 ... ure andgit and eac swiðor þæra [ here we go again, I think it’s engelæredra. Luckily the rest of this paragraph is about prepositional groups] .... 

“§1465. But, as I have already said, the split construction is only one of three possibilities.  We find all the elements of a subject grouped together before a verb in ÆCHom i. 434.24 ... þæt seo cwen Triphonia and Decius dohtor Cyrilla to Cristes geleafan... gebogene waeron and ÆCHom i. 118.23 Se frumsceapena man and eall his [ offspring by the look of it] wearð adræfed of neorxena wanges myrhðe .... All the elements are groups together after the verb in ÆCHom i. 18.25 ac sceolde Adam and his ofspring tyman on asettum [ something -man]... and ÆCHom i. 598.30 þas ðrowunge awriton þære ðeode [ something -eostas] and ða ylcan diaconas ðe hit eal gesawon. They are separated in ÆCHom i. 434.18 Soðlice seo cwen Triphonia gesohte ðæs halgan [ something -cerdes] fet Iustines mid biterum tearum, and hire dohtor Cyrilla" end of photocopy.

Somewhere in there, I ween, it is possible to see that Mitchell does not regard detachable noun-phrases as a fixed rule but as a common clarification prompted by Old English sentence structure.

This is what I meant by my grammatical self-confidence going up and down like a whore’s drawers.  The contradictory source was, of course, quite explicit, but I’m tempted to follow Mitchell.  I don’t think I’m completely stupid and if any such rule were set in concrete, I think I’d have noticed it in over thirty years of dabbling on Old English.   


***


Another niggle: how do you say ‘Father Christmas’ in Old English?  If you treat the fæder as a social etc. title analogous to ‘Mother Hubbard’, ‘Maid Marian’ or ‘Sister Sledge’, then it should follow the proper noun, not be part of it: Crístmæsse fæder which seems a bit dull and cumbersome.  Yet if you ‘analyse’ it ( as Stephen Pinker puts it) as part of the proper noun, analogous to ‘Father Time’, ‘Mother Earth’  or ‘Brer Rabbit’... you’re still stuck with Crístmæsse fæder because Old English doesn’t appear to go there, does it?  Yet I’m sure I’ve seen an Ealfæder somewhere ( a synonym for the Judeo-Christian god, if memory serves, if maybe recycled from some Heathen god) and there’s definitely béomódor for a queen bee, so why not Ġéolfæder?  And this is not ( repeat not) the Atheist in me trying to kick Jesus into the grass, I’m just serious about Crístmæsse fæder being a drag.  Remember, this has to work in a carol.

Or can anyone do any better?

( I wonder what Boy George thinks ::) )



Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 25, 2016, 09:31:08 PM
 
It seems that titles follow the name except for saints or when it follows a direct article. I checked for popes in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as papa sort of means father.
So in 595/6 and 601 we Gregorius papa, in 813 we have þæs papan Leon, in 815/6 we have Stephanus papa and in 885 we have se gōda papa Marinus.
 
For St Mary you said that you could only find dative cases. In 656 of the chronicles E  we have the genitive mynstre Sancte Marie ciriċe but there are strange spellings in this entry. In 874 of the chronicles we have the genitive Sancte Marian ciriċan. I use “ċ” as in “A” chronicles it is spelt ciricean. However I believe that it can also pronounced as the hard c. I believe that the nominative singular is Maria. This makes it look like a masculine or neuter weak noun but I think that as above the Latin is is used for the nominative singular. I cannot think of a feminine noun that ends in an “-a”.
 
Another woman in the chronicles whose name ends in an “-a” is Margareta who married King Malcolm III of Scotland. She is mentioned four times in the E chronicles. In 1067 we have the dative tō wīfe Margaretan. In 1093 we have the nominative sēo gōde cwēn Margarita. In 1097 we have the genitive Margarite þǣre cwēnan. In 1100 we have the genitive Margareta þǣre gōda cwǣne. 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on April 28, 2016, 05:08:42 PM



I have now translated all of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen. Although I am now moving onto O Come All Ye Faithful, do feel free to comment on God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.
 
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen                                               God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Ġesǣliġe  Burhmenn

God rest ye merry Gentlemen                                                 God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ ġesǣliġe burhmenn
Let nothing you dismay                                                          Ne lǣtaþ nāht ēow swearcaþ
Remember Christ our Saviour                                                 Ġemunaþ Crist ūre Hǣlend
Was born on Christmas day                                                    Wōc on Cristesmæssan dæġe
To save us all from Satan’s power                                           Ūs eall fram Satanes ġewealde tō nerianne
When we were gone astray.                                                    Ðonne wē wandrodon.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
From God our Heavenly Father                                               Fram Gode ūrum Heofonliċan Fæder
A blessed Angel came;                                                           Ġebletsod engel cōm;
And unto certain shepherds                                                   And tō sumum sceaphyrdum
Brought tidings of the same:                                                 Brengedon spell þæs ilcan:
How that in Bethlehem was born                                            Hū þe in Betleheme awōc
The Son of God by Name.                                                      Se Sunu Godes þurh Naman.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames

And when they came to Bethlehem                                        And þā hīe cōmon tō Bethleheme
Where our dear Saviour lay,                                                   Þǣr læġ ūre dēore Hælend,
They found Him in a manger,                                                 Hīe hine fundon in binne,
Where the oxen feed on hay.                                                 Þǣr fēdaþ þā oxan on hīeġe.
His Mother Mary kneeling down,                                            His Mōdor Maria cnēowiġende,
Unto the Lord did pray.                                                          Bæd tō þǣm Dryhtene.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on May 04, 2016, 02:41:52 PM


Yes, thanks Phylllis and Osgyth.  I see now that “rest ye merry” hasn’t fallen quite so far down the memory hole as I first imagined, since we still say “rest assured”, “rest easy” and just maybe “rest in peace” is another throwback to it, and that “merry gentlemen” is not a noun phrase.

I am a bit puzzled by God lǽte þe ġé wuniaþ blíðe burhmenn David, which strikes me as a bit tautological and surely wuniaþ should be wuniende.

The good news it that, thanks to Bruce Guess Who Mitchell’s Old English Syntax I am now wise to this thing called the hortative.  Seemingly it’s a way of using the subjunctive as a kind of punch-pulling imperative or a stylistic way of achieving the same difference as a vocative ( well, besides going Lá! etc.), commonly, if not necessarily, by beginning the sentence with the main verb and if I can read my own longhand, never mind shorthand.  I’ve definitely got these two exemplars:

Ne yldan we na from dæge to dæge.
Lit: Not let-us-delay we not from day to day.

‘Let us not delay from day to day’.

God us gerihtlæce.
Lit: God us correct.

‘May God correct us’.


So... iff my seory ist korrect one could have:

Wunien God éow blíðe fréan
Lit. Let-rest God you merry, gentlemen

‘God rest ye merry gentlemen’.

Or:

God éow wunien blíðe fréan
Lit: God you let-rest merry, gentlemen.

‘God rest ye merry gentlemen’


Also my Sweet has ‘become dark ( of sun)’ for swearcian or sweorcan, whereas there’s a hiertan for ‘cherish, encourage’ ( and the online Old English Translator adds ‘cheer, be renewed, refreshed’ and ‘revive’) a verbal form of heorte, and Mr Pollington’s Wordcraft gives yrgan for ‘dishearten’ whereas the online Translator has an iergan for ‘dishearten, dismay’.

So for the second line, why not...?

Ne unhierten éow náht as it were ‘May naught dishearten you’

Or...?

Ne yrgen éow náht as it were ‘May nothing dismay you’


You’ll notice I plump for fréan rather than burhmenn.  Again, this is where we fumble in a blanket with our gut feelings etc. but for my money somebody penning a carol in a more status-conscious age than ours didn’t mean ‘gentlemen’ literally, no more than he or the name Cantwarebyrig meant to exclude women and children.  Rather, I feel there’s an edge of flattery-cum-hypercorrect civility in that choice of word, for which fréan suggests itself.  My Sweet seems to imply that burhmenn is closer to ‘citizens’. 

Or not because I’m not pretending there’s a lot in it.  What were your impressions, Phyllis and Osgyth?

Now I’m going to upload this double quick as it’s taken ages and I’ve only considered the first two lines!




Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on May 04, 2016, 04:35:33 PM



In reply to Bowerthane:-
 
Osgyth’s post persuaded me to plump for ġesæliġ rather than blīðe, see reply 52. It also encouraged me to stick to burhmenn, the prosperous merchants happily making their money.
 
My original idea was “God lǣte eow wunian ġsǣliġ burhmenn”. This gave me the problem of why “ye” was used rather than “you”. To get over that I changed it to the cumbersome “God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ ġesǣliġ burhmenn”. That is “May God allow that you to remain prosperous burger men”.
 
“Swearcaþ” should have been “sweorcaþ”. I was mixing up the present and past tenses. Sweorcan does mean to grow dark, as in the weather, but also as in your mood i.e. to be troubled. I am also thinking that “lǣtaþ” should be “lǣt”
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on May 09, 2016, 12:02:16 PM


This is the first part of Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful. Please note that in God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen I have replaced ġesǣliġ  with ġesǣliġe.
 
Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan

Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan
Joyful and triumphant!                                    Blissiġ and sigorbeorht!
Oh, come ye, oh, come ye to Bethlehem;       Lā, cumaþ ġē, lā, cumaþ ġē tō Bethleheme;
Come and behold him                                     Cumaþ and hine lōciaþ
Born the king of angels:                                 Ġeboren se cyning engla:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Highest, most holy,                                        Hīehst, halgost,
Light of light eternal,                                       Lēoht ēċes lēohtes,
Born of a virgin,                                              Ġeboren fæmnan,
A mortal he comes;                                        In dēaðlicnesse he cymþ;
Son of the Father                                            Sunu þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                   Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on May 20, 2016, 08:22:50 PM

I have now translated all of Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful
 
Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan

Oh, come, all ye faithful                                  Lā, cumaþ, eall ġē trēowġeþoftan
Joyful and triumphant!                                    Blissiġ and sigorbeorht!
Oh, come ye, oh, come ye to Bethlehem;       Lā, cumaþ ġē, lā, cumaþ ġē tō Bethleheme;
Come and behold him                                     Cumaþ and hine lōciaþ
Born the king of angels:                                 Ġeboren se cyning engla:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Highest, most holy,                                        Hīehst, halgost,
Light of light eternal,                                       Lēoht ēċes lēohtes,
Born of a virgin,                                              Ġeboren fæmnan,
A mortal he comes;                                         In dēaðlicnesse he cymþ;
Son of the Father                                             Sunu þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                   Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                               Crist se Dryhten.
 
Sing, choirs of angels,                                    Singaþ, choras engla,
Sing in exultation,                                           Singaþ in blissunge,
Sing, all ye citizens of heaven above!              Singaþ, ealla ġe ċeasterware heofones ofer!
Glory to God                                                   Wuldor tō Gode
In the highest:                                                Heahgode:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Yea, Lord, we greet thee,                               Ġēa, Dryhten wē þē grētaþ,
Born this happy morning;                              Ġeboren þēs sǣliġa  morgen;
Jesus, to thee be glory given!                         Iesus, man tō þē giefe wuldor!
Word of the Father                                         Word þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                  Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on June 05, 2016, 04:16:26 PM




What no comments on Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful. Are you saying that my translation is perfect. You can still comment on it but I must continue.
This is the first part of Once In Royal David’s City.
 
Once In Royal David’s City                             Ġēara In Cyneliċre Dāuides Ċeastre
 
Once in royal David’s city                                Ġēara in cyneliċre Dāuides ċeastre
Stood a lowly cattle shed,                              Niðerliċ scipen stōd,
Where a mother laid her Baby                         Þǣr leġde mōdor Lȳtling
In a manger for His bed:                                In binne for His bedde:
Mary was that mother mild,                            Maria wæs sēo mōdor milde,
Jesus Christ her little Child.                            Iesus Crist hiere lȳtle Ċild.
 
He came down from to earth from heaven,     Hē niðerstāg tō earðe fram heofenone,
Who is God and Lord of all,                             Ðe is God and Drihten ealles,
And his shelter was a stable,                          And his hlēowþ wæs  horsern,
And his cradle was a stall;                              And his cradol wæs  bōsiġ;
With the poor, and mean, and lowly,              Mid þǣm eatmingas, and þearfan, and esnas,
Lived on earth our Saviour holy.                     Ūre hāliġ Hǣlend būde on eorþe.
 
And through all His wondrous childhood        And ġeond eallne His wrǣtliċne cīldhād
He would honour and obey                             Hē wolde ārian and hīersumian
Love and watch the lowly maiden,                  Lufian and wacian þā niðerliċe mægð,
In whose gentle arms he lay:                          In þǣre līðum earmum hē læġ:
Christian children all must be                          Eallu Crīstenu child sculon bēon
Mild, obedient, good as He.                            Milde, ġehīersum and gōd swā Hē.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on June 17, 2016, 02:23:05 PM
Hello again David.  Please do not mistake my recent neglect for lack of interest or appreciation.  Life, the universe, earning a living etc. have led me astray and only now dare I bend my brows back to these forums with some hope of saying anything sensible.

Such as... whilst I suppose there’s nothing wrong with Iesus, man tō þē giefe wuldor! for Jesus, to thee be glory given!, why not Iesus, wes þē giefe wuldor!?

Just a thought.



Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on June 18, 2016, 06:30:50 PM



Bowerthane, it is good to have you back. People have not been commenting on the carols.
 
The line you commented on was a problem for me. I feel that the abolition of the passive voice was a big mistake. To remedy this old English came up with two constructions for the passive which do the job, but inelegantly. I tend to use one as it was the first I was taught but you tend to go for the other.
 
“Jesus, to thee be glory given!” sounds like an imperative in the passive which is a problem for me. I meant ġiefe to be an imperative but thought it could be a subjunctive if the imperative did not make sense. Unfortunately I think that the imperative is ġief, not ġiefe. I think that in your construction ġiefe should be ġiefen, the past participle.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on June 19, 2016, 07:04:34 PM



I have now translated all of Once In Royal David’s City
 
Once In Royal David’s City                             Ġēara In Cyneliċre Dāuides Ċeastre
 
Once in royal David’s city                               Ġēara in cyneliċre Dāuides ċeastre
Stood a lowly cattle shed,                              Niðerliċ scipen stōd,
Where a mother laid her Baby                         Þǣr leġde mōdor Lȳtling
In a manger for His bed:                                In binne for His bedde:
Mary was that mother mild,                            Maria wæs sēo mōdor milde,
Jesus Christ her little Child.                            Iesus Crist hiere lȳtle Ċild.
 
He came down from to earth from heaven,     Hē niðerstāg tō earðe fram heofenone,
Who is God and Lord of all,                             Ðe is God and Drihten ealles,
And his shelter was a stable,                          And his hlēowþ wæs  horsern,
And his cradle was a stall;                              And his cradol wæs  bōsiġ;
With the poor, and mean, and lowly,              Mid þǣm eatmingas, and þearfan, and esnas,
Lived on earth our Saviour holy.                     Ūre hāliġ Hǣlend būde on eorþe.
 
And through all His wondrous childhood        And ġeond eallne His wrǣtliċne cīldhād
He would honour and obey                             Hē wolde ārian and hīersumian
Love and watch the lowly maiden,                  Lufian and wacian þā niðerliċe mægð,
In whose gentle arms he lay:                          In þǣre līðum earmum hē læġ:
Christian children all must be                          Eallu Crīstenu child sculon bēon
Mild, obedient, good as He.                            Milde, ġehīersum and gōd swā Hē.
 
For He is our childhood’s pattern;                  For Hē is ūre cildhādes bīsen:
Day by day, like us He grew;                          Dæġ æfter dæġ, swā ūs Hē awēox;
He was little, weak and helpless,                    Hē wæs lȳtel, unmihtiġ and fultumlēas,
Tears and smiles like us He knew;                  Swā wē, hē drēag smearcian and grēotan;
And He feeleth for our sadness,                     And hē fēleð ūre sāriġnesse,
And He shareth in our gladness.                    And hē dǣlnimeþ in ūre glædnesse.
 
And our eyes at last shall see Him,                 And ūre eaġan æ niehtstan sīehþ Hine,
Through His own redeeming love;                  Ðurh His agenre ālīesendre lufe;
For that child so dear and gentle                    For þæt ċild swā lēof and līðe
Is our Lord in heaven above,                          Is ūre Dryhten in heofonum ofer,
And he leads his children on                           And he læt forþ his ċild
To the place where he is gone.                       Tō þǣre stōwe  þe hē ēode.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on June 22, 2016, 03:04:14 PM
_____________________
Þǣr leġde mōdor Lȳtling
_____________________

Shouldn’t this be: Þǣr leġde mōdor hiere Lȳtling?

Also, since the clause is dependent, can’t you say: Hwǽre leġde mōdor hiere Lȳtling and maybe should?  Or have I misunderstood something?


________________________
Maria wæs sēo mōdor milde,
________________________


Shouldn’t this be: Maria wæs þā mōdor milde, since this is in the accusative?


____________________________
Eallu Crīstenu child sculon bēon
Milde, ġehīersum and gōd swā Hē.

____________________________


 ;)  Excellent idea.  I went straight to the surliest bunch of chavs I could find and told them so.  Had to be rescued by the police. ???









Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on June 22, 2016, 09:00:10 PM
 
Beowerthane, I agree that it is better to put “hiere” into “þǣr leġde mōdor Lȳtling” although it can be omitted.
I do not know the word “hwǣre”. If you mean “hwǣr” I only use that in questions. If you mean “ġehwǣre” that is the feminine singular genitive/dative of hwā/hwæt. Also I am reluctant to use such a word that I believe was coined in the 11th century on the lines of þǣre. I hear that 11th century scribes “corrected” earlier texts by replacing hwǣm/hwæs with ġehwǣre. This includes line 25 of Beowulf.
 
I disagree with “wæs” taking the accusative. I thought that it always took the nominative. Aren’t statements such as “it was me” a modern phenomenon. I thought that the old version was “it was I”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on July 04, 2016, 02:22:49 PM
________________________________________________________
And he leads his children on                           And he læt forþ his ċild
________________________________________________________


Aah... yes, accusative plural of ċild is... ċild isn’t it?  And not ċildru, right?

Ignore me...

***


Possibly more useful niggle: back on page four in the 28 April version of God Lǽte Þe Ġé Wuniaþ Ġesǽliġe Burhmenn you’ve got Betleheme on line 5 of the second verse but Bethleheme on line 1 one of the last verse, both in the dative.




Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on July 04, 2016, 06:24:24 PM



I use ċild for both the nominative and accusative plural. I believe the –ru ending was a very late West Saxon innovation. It was used in the accusative as well as the nominative.
 
The Betleheme was just a slip. I usually use þ or ð rather than th but I have not seen those forms in Bethlehem.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on July 09, 2016, 07:17:59 PM
 [size=78%]This is the first half of Away in a Manger.[/size]
 
Away in a Manger                                           Ġeond in binne
 
Away in a manger,                                          Ġeond in binne,
No crib for a bed,                                            Nā cribb for bedde,
The little Lord Jesus                                        Se lȳtel Iesus Drihten
Laid down his sweet head.                              Ofleġde his līðe heafod.
 
The stars in the bright sky                              Þā steorran in beorhtum rodore
Looked down where he lay,                            Lōcodon niþer þǣr læġd hē,
The little Lord Jesus                                       Se lȳtla Iesus Dryhten
Asleep in the hay.                                           Swodraþ in þǣm hieġe.
 
The cattle are lowing,                                     Þā oxan hlōwaþ,
The baby awakes,                                          Se lȳtling aweċþ,
But little Lord Jesus                                       Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten
No crying he makes.                                      Nā wōp hē ne dēþ.
 

 Look down from the sky                                Lōcaþ niþer of rodore
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on July 11, 2016, 02:04:05 PM

Two more typos in Once in Royal David's City: ‘cīldhād’ for ‘ċildhád’ in verse three, line one and ‘child’ for ‘ċild’ in verse three, line five.

Also, do I guess from Swā wē, hē drēag smearcian and grēotan; that you, too have hunted high and low for a simple noun for ‘smile’ in Old English and not found one?

Dickered if I could, and it’s very frustrating.




Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on July 12, 2016, 08:33:03 AM



Bowerthane,


Thanks for the corrections, I think that you are the only person checking the carols.


You were right about smile
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on July 24, 2016, 08:39:59 AM
 I have now finished translating Away in a Manger.
 
Away in a Manger                                           Ġeond in binne
 
Away in a manger,                                           Ġeond in binne,
No crib for a bed,                                            Nā cribb for bedde,
The little Lord Jesus                                        Se lȳtel Iesus Drihten
Laid down his sweet head.                              Ofleġde his līðe heafod.
 
The stars in the bright sky                              Þā steorran in beorhtum rodore
Looked down where he lay,                            Lōcodon niþer þǣr læġd hē,
The little Lord Jesus                                       Se lȳtla Iesus Dryhten
Asleep in the hay.                                           Swodraþ in þǣm hieġe.
 
The cattle are lowing,                                      Þā oxan hlōwaþ,
The baby awakes,                                           Se lȳtling aweċþ,
But little Lord Jesus                                        Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten
No crying he makes.                                       Nā wōp hē ne dēþ.
 
 I love Thee, Lord Jesus,                                 Iċ þē lufie, Iesus Dryhten
Look down from the sky                                 Lōcaþ niþer of rodore
 And stay by my side                                      And bītt be mīne sīde
‘til morning is nigh.                                        Oð morgen is neah.
 
Be near me, Lord Jesus,                                Bēo neah mē, Iesus Dryhten,
I ask Thee to stay                                          Iċ þē bidde wunian
Close by me forever,                                      Ġetenge mē ā on ēċnesse,
And love me, I pray.                                      And mē lufast, iċ ġebidde.
 
Bless all the dear children                             Bletsa eall þā lēofan ċild
In thy tender care,                                        In þīnum  hnescum  fæðme,
And take us to heaven,                                 And læde ūs tō heofone,
To live with Thee there.                                 Þǣr libban mid þē.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on August 07, 2016, 11:42:26 AM
I have translated the first two verses of Joy to the World.
 
Joy to the World                                                    Wynn tō þǣre Worulde
 
Joy to the world, the Lord is come!                       Wynn tō þǣre worulde, se Drihten is cumen!
Let earth receive her king;                                     Eorðe āfō hiere cyning;
Let every heart prepare him room,                        Eall heorte him ġearwie rȳmet
And heav’n and nature sing,                                 And heofon singþ and middangeard,
And heav’n and nature sing,                                 And heofon singþ and middangeard,
And heav’n, and heaven, and nature sing.            And heofon, and heofon singþ and middangeard.
 
Joy to the earth, the Saviour reigns!                     Wynn tō þǣre eorðe, se Hǣlend rīcsaþ!
Let men their songs employ;                                 Menn nēoten hiera sanga;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains       Þenden  æcras and flōdas, stānas and felda
Repeat the sounding joy,                                      Eftġiaþ þā swēġliċan wynne,   
Repeat the sounding joy,                                      Eftġiaþ þā swēġliċan wynne,                               
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.                         Eftgiaþ, eftġiap  þā swēġliċan wynne.                             
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Linden on August 11, 2016, 02:03:27 PM
I think that what you are doing is great.  A couple of suggestions - by all means ignore them if I am interfering.

Perhaps 'dream' would suit the sense better than 'wyn'? 'Wyn' can be quite corporeal whereas 'dream' not only means 'joy' but also carries lots of musical implications.

 Also it might be an occasion to use 'ge' rather than 'and' as the conjunction; 'and' repeated so many times seems to me to get a bit more noticeable every time it reappears whereas 'ge' sort of blends in leaving the nouns more prominent?
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on August 11, 2016, 03:47:41 PM



Thanks for joining in Linden.
 
 
I take your point about the musical implications of “drēam” so that is probably better than “wynn”. Then I have always used “and” for and. I can see that it is getting repetitive here – almost as bad as the Anglo-Saxons tironian nota. I’ll change the odd “and” to a “ġe”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on August 21, 2016, 06:26:29 PM

I have now finished translating Joy to the World.
 
Joy to the World                                                    Drēam  tō þǣre Worulde
 
Joy to the world, the Lord is come!                      Drēam tō þǣre worulde, se Drihten is cumen!
Let earth receive her king;                                    Eorðe āfō hiere cyning;
Let every heart prepare him room,                        Eall heorte him ġearwie rȳmet
And heav’n and nature sing,                                 Ġe heofon singþ and middangeard,
And heav’n and nature sing,                                 Ġe heofon singþ and middangeard,
And heav’n, and heaven, and nature sing.            Ġe heofon, ġe heofon singþ and middangeard.
 
Joy to the earth, the Saviour reigns!                    Drēam tō þǣre eorðe, se Hǣlend rīcsaþ!
Let men their songs employ;                                Menn nēoten hiera sanga;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains       Þenden  æcras and flōdas, stānas and felda
Repeat the sounding joy,                                      Eftġiaþ þone swēġliċan drēam,   
Repeat the sounding joy,                                      Eftġiaþ þone swēġliċan drēam,                           
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.                         Eftgiaþ, eftġiap  þone swēġliċan drēam.                         
 
No more let sins and sorrows grow,                      Nā mā synna weaxen and murcunga,
Nor thorns infest the ground;                               Nā þornas ymbhīpaþ þā folde:
He comes to make His blessings flow                    Hē cymþ tō dōnne His bletsung flōwan
Far as the curse is found,                                      Feorr swā sēo awiergung is funden,
Far as the curse is found,                                      Feorr swā sēo awiergung is funden,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.                          Feorr swā, feorr swā, sēo awiergung is funden.
 
He rules the world with truth and grace,               Hē rīcsaþ middanġeard mid sōðe and lisse,
And makes the nations prove                               And dōþ þā þēoda cȳðan
The glories of His righteousness,                          Þā tīras his rihtwīsesse,
And wonders of his love,                                      And wundra his lufe,
And wonders of his love,                                      And wundra his lufe,
And wonders, wonders, of his love.                     And wundra, wundra, his lufe.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on September 02, 2016, 03:22:40 PM



This is the first two of the five verses of O Come, O Come, Emmanuel.
 
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel                        Lā Cym, Lā Cym, Emmanuel
 
O come, O come, Emmanuel,                        Lā cym, Lā cym, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel,                            And ālīesaþ hæftne Israel,
That mourns in lonely exile here                    Þe gnornaþ in annum wræc hēr
Until the Son of God appear.                         Oððæt se Goding ætīewe.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                          Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                        Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
O come, Thou rod of Jesse, free                   Lā cym, Þū  stæf Iesses, ġefrēa
Thine own from Satan’s tyranny;                  Þīn swǣsan men fram Satanes rīċetere;
From depths of hell thy people save,            Nere þīnne þēodscipe fram dēop helle,
And give them victory o’er the grave.           And ġief þǣm sigor ofer þǣre bygene.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                         Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                       Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on September 15, 2016, 03:45:25 PM



I have finished translating O Come, O Come, Emmanuel
 
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel                       Lā Cym, Lā Cym, Emmanuel
 
O come, O come, Emmanuel,                         Lā cym, Lā cym, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel,                             And ālīesaþ hæftne Israel,
That mourns in lonely exile here                      Þe gnornaþ in annum wræc hēr
Until the Son of God appear.                           Oððæt se Goding ætīewe.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                            Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                          Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
O come, Thou rod of Jesse, free                      Lā cym, Þū  stæf Iesses, ġefrēa
Thine own from Satan’s tyranny;                     Þīn swǣsan men fram Satanes rīċetere;
From depths of hell thy people save,               Nere þīnne þēodscipe fram dēop helle,
And give them victory o’er the grave.              And ġief þǣm sigor ofer þǣre bygene.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                             Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                           Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
O come, Thou Day-Spring, come and cheer   Lā cym, Þū  Dæġ-Wiell, cym and amyrge
Our spirits by Thine advent here;                    Ūra sāwla þurh þīne cyme hider;
Disperse the gloomy clouds of night               Ūtdrif  þā mircan wolcnu nihte
And death’s dark shadows put to flight!          And deorca dēaðscūa flīeme! 
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                            Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                           Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
O come, Thou Key of David, come,                Lā cym, Þū Ċǣġ Dauides, cym,
And open wide our heavenly home;                And opena wide ūrne heofonlic hām;
Make safe the way that leads on high,            Befæste þone weġ þe lǣtt hēah,
And close the path to misery.                         And beclȳse þone pæð tō wēan.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                            Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                          Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
O come, Thou Lord of Might,                         Lā cym, Þū Drihten Mihte,
Who to Thy tribes on Sinai’s height                Þe tō Þīnum ġeðēodum on Hēahsinai
In ancient times didst give the law                 In ealddagum ġēafe ǣ
In cloud, and majesty, and awe.                    In wolcne, and mæġenðrymme, and eġe.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel                           Blissiaþ! Blissiaþ! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Isreal.                          Cymþ tō þē, Lā Israel.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on September 26, 2016, 02:34:41 PM
‘Mr Quibbles’ strikes again: in Once In Royal David’s City did you catch the missing macron over the E in line four, verse one Ofleġde his līðe heafod? And -aha!- it seems you have caught the Y in line three, verse four Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten.  So I'll shut up about that.

__________________________________________________________________
I disagree with “wæs” taking the accusative. I thought that it always took the nominative. Aren’t statements such as “it was me” a modern phenomenon. I thought that the old version was “it was I”.
___________________________________________________________________

You’re quite right David.  Ignore me. 


Having another look at:

________________________________________________________
 And he leads his children on                           And he læt forþ his ċild
 ________________________________________________________
 
 

made me realise I didn’t spot the missing macron over the E in he, :-[ :-[ :-[ . Also, now that I come to check with my Sweet’s Anglo-Saxon Primer, and cross check with my Old English Grammar by J. and E. Wright, I’m fairly sure it should be And hē lǽdeþ forþ his ċild ( I have to use an acute accent for a macron over ligatures) or And hē lǽdþ forþ his ċild if læt for ‘leads’ was meant to be the third person singular present indicative of lǽdan, ‘leading’.

Yet it also looks as if, like many common verbs, lǽdan has variant forms so læt could be one of the many things you know that I don’t. Can it be conjugated as a strong verb too, or what?


***


( I have not abandoned this thread but life, earning a living, next door’s cat etc. keep fending me forth. I shall try to keep up, ::) .)


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on September 26, 2016, 03:09:00 PM



Yes Bowerthane I missed out some macrons
Heafod  should be hēafod, he should be hē and læt should be lǣt.
 
In West Saxon lǣdeþ would be lǣdp which is usually changed to lǣt or lǣtt.
I believe that lǣdan is always weak.
 
I was going to post the first part of the next carol tomorrow but now I might wait a couple of days while you carry on checking what is there.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on September 27, 2016, 02:28:28 PM
_______________________________________________________
I might wait a couple of days while you carry on checking what is there.
_______________________________________________________

Whoops, I wouldn't count on that David.  I wasn't joking about life etc. blowing me off course, and I try to give this thread full and proper attention when I do get a clear run at it.  And as you've seen , I still get things wrong!

All I can say is that I'll do my best with what time I can find.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on September 29, 2016, 01:55:49 PM



This is the first half of It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
 
It Came Upon the Midnight Clear                              Hit Cōm Uppan Þǣre Midniht Scīrre
 
It came upon the midnight clear,                                 Hit cōm uppan þǣre midniht scīrre,
That glorious song of old,                                           Se þrymliċ sang ǣrdaga,
From angels bending near the earth                            Fram englas būgende  ġehende þǣre eorþe
To touch their harps of gold!                                       Hrīnan þāra hearpa goldes!
Peace on the earth, good will to men,                         Sibb in þǣre eorðe, frēod tō mannum,
From heaven’s all gracious king!                                  Fram heofones eallum ārfæstum cyninge!
The world in solemn stillness lay                                 Sēo woruld læġ in dēopre stillnesse
To hear the angels sing.                                              Tō hīeranne þā englas singan.
 
Still through the cloven skies they come                    Ġēn cumaþ hīe ġeond þā ġeclofne heofnas
With peaceful wings unfurled                                     Mid smoltum fiðrum unġefealden
And still their heavenly music floats                           And ġēn flīet hiera heofonisc sōncræft
O'er all the weary world;                                            Ofer eall þone wēriġ middangeard;
Above its sad and lowly plains                                   Bufan his unrōtum and niðerliċum felda
They bend on hovering wing.                                    Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
And ever o'er its Babel sounds                                  And ǣfre ofer his Babelra hlēoð0rum
 The blessed angels sing.                                          Þā ēadiġe englas singaþ.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on October 04, 2016, 02:45:58 PM
_____________________________
And opena wide ūrne heofonlic hām;
_____________________________


Shouldn’t wide have a macron over the I? ( O Come, O Come, Emmanuel verse four, line two.  I notice you’ve got ‘Isreal’ for ‘Israel’ in the Modern English version, too). 

Back in verse three, line three of Away in a Manger:

_____________________
Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten
_____________________


It looks as if a macron has gone AWOL from the Y ( and shouldn’t binne take a capital B in the title?).


I have to say I think Away in a Manger works especially well in Old English.





Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 04, 2016, 03:30:05 PM



Bowerthane, thanks for the corrections.
 
I think that the missing macron in wīde was Word doing an automatic correction. That drives me crazy.
 
I often miss the macron in lȳtel. In one of the carols I had to go back and put it several times.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on October 06, 2016, 02:25:46 PM

_____________________________________________
Word doing an automatic correction. That drives me crazy

_____________________________________________

Oooh, tell me about it!


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 10, 2016, 01:02:18 PM

I have now finished It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
 
It Came Upon the Midnight Clear                              Hit Cōm Uppan Þǣre Midniht Scīrre
 
It came upon the midnight clear,                                Hit cōm uppan þǣre midniht scīrre,
That glorious song of old,                                           Se þrymliċ sang ǣrdaga,
From angels bending near the earth                            Fram englas būgende  ġehende þǣre eorþe
To touch their harps of gold!                                       Hrīnan þāra hearpa goldes!
Peace on the earth, good will to men,                         Sibb in þǣre eorðe, frēod tō mannum,
From heaven’s all gracious king!                                  Fram heofones eallum ārfæstum cyninge!
The world in solemn stillness lay                                  Sēo woruld læġ in dēopre stillnesse
To hear the angels sing.                                              Tō hīeranne þā englas singaþ.
 
Still through the cloven skies they come                    Ġēn cumaþ hīe ġeond þā ġeclofne heofnas
With peaceful wings unfurled                                      Mid smoltum fiðrum unġefealden
And still their heavenly music floats                            And ġēn flīet hiera heofonisc sōncræft
O'er all the weary world;                                             Ofer eall þone wēriġ middangeard;
Above its sad and lowly plains                                    Bufan his unrōtum and niðerliċum felda
They bend on hovering wing.                                     Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
And ever o'er its Babel sounds                                   And ǣfre ofer his Babelra hlēoð0rum
 The blessed angels sing.                                            Þā ēadiġe englas singaþ.
 
Yet with the woes of sin and strife                              Ġīet mid þǣm wēam gyltes and sæce
The world hath suffered long;                                    Middangeard þolode langliċe;
Beneath the angel-strain have rolled                          Beneoðan þǣm engelcynne wealwodon
Two thousand years of wrong;                                  Twā þūsend ġēara wranga;
And man, at war with man, hears not                        And mann, æt wīġe wið menn, ne hīerþ
The love song which they bring:                                Se sang lufe þe hīe brengaþ:
O hush the noise, ye men of strife,                            Lā stillaþ þone hrēam, ġē men sæce,
And hear the angels sing.                                          Þā englas singaþ tō hīeranne.
 
For lo! The days are hastening on,                            For lā! Þā dagas scyndaþ,
By prophet bards foretold,                                        Fram wīteġiendum scōpum foresæġdon,
When, with the ever-circling years,                           Þonne, mid þǣm ā hwearftum ġēara,
Shall come the Age of Gold;                                     Cymþ sēo ieldo goldes;
When peace shall over all the earth                           Ðonne ofer eallre eorðe
Its ancient splendours fling,                                     Frið āsprengþ his wēorðnesse,
 And all the world give back the song                        And eall worulde eftāġiefþ þone sang
 Which now the angels sing.                                      Þe nū singþ þā englas.
                            
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on October 12, 2016, 02:42:01 PM
_________
Hlēoð0rum
_________

Wossat?

Otherwise: brilliant!  A pleasure to read, with jam on it for :)  me, personally:

________________
æt wīġe wið menn
________________

Aha!  Do I take it one CAN render the modern idiom ‘at war’, ‘at peace’, ‘at loggerheads’, ‘at a discount’ etc. into Old English without fear of anachronism?  As you may have begun to suspect, I have tried and failed to nail this one.  I do know how differences between Modern and Old English idioms ( as when speaking a foreign language) can still rain on the parade even when you’ve poured all that time, effort and coffee into getting everything else right. 

Sometimes with far-reaching consequences, like saying Ich bin kalt in German :-[ .

____________________________________________________
They bend on hovering wing. Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
____________________________________________________


Ah, now I get it. Nice :P one!




_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to be identified as that mysterious black runestone in 1001: A Saxon Odyssey has been asserted.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 12, 2016, 06:11:53 PM



Wossat? Nought but O!
 
I just took a chance with “æt wiġe wið menn”. Should we change it to something like “fieht wið menn”
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 14, 2016, 09:45:42 AM



I have noticed some possible errors in three of the carols.
 
In verse 4 of Once in Royal David’s City I think that the “ūre” should be changed to “ūres” so that it agrees with “ċildhādes” not with “bisen”.
 
In verse 3 of Joy to the World I think that “bletsung” should be “blētsunga”, the plural.
 
In verse 4 of Upon the Midnight Clear I did not translate “ancient” and I think that ending of wēorðnes might be wrong. So I suggest changing “wēorðnesse” to “ealda  wēorðnessa”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 20, 2016, 06:11:25 PM



This is the first half of The Holly and The Ivy.
 
The Holly and The Ivy                                Se Holen and Þæt Īfiġ                                   
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                          Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a blossom,                         Se holen birþ blōstm,
As white as lily flow’r,                                  Swā hwīte swā lilian cropp,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To be our dear Saviour                               Ūre lēof Hǣlend tō bēonne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a berry,                               Se holen birþ beriġ,
As red as any blood,                                    Swā read swā ǣniġ blōd,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To do poor sinners good.                            Hrēowliċe gyltendas bētanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                         And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                   Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                           Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on October 24, 2016, 02:34:36 PM

Ooh, I’ve been looking forward to The Holly and the Ivy!

______________________
Se holen birþ þone corōna.
______________________

Call me “Mr Pedantically Anti-Classicist” but I couldn’t interest you in:

_________________________
Se holen birþ þone hēafodbēag.
_________________________

by any chance? More Christmassy?

____
blīre
____

Wossat, if it isn’t a typo for blīþe?


______________________________

And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
______________________________


I’m not getting at līðe but why not swēte?


____________
in þǣm chore
____________

Ah, let me guess. You had a hell of time trying to find a simple noun for ‘choir’ too, right? It’s a pity we’re stuck with the Greek loan-word but that’s the best I could do, too.


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 24, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Thanks for doing the checking Bowerthane.
 
Hēafodbēag sounds more Anglo-Saxon, it was just that corona was easier for me to say and sing.
 
Yes blīre should have been blīþe – I must have been very tired.
 
I tend to prefer swēte for taste and līðe for feeling, but I do not mind changing it.
 
You are right about chore. Would you pronounce it ċore?
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on October 29, 2016, 01:37:43 PM
____________________________________________
Should we change it to something like “fieht wið menn”
____________________________________________


Ooh, my opinion would be a treacherous gift here, David.  All I can say is I’d stick with your present wording unless refuted, if only because one of my rules is ‘if in doubt, side with the wordsmith’s choice of word’. 

Bosworth and Toller is irksomely brief about æt though it gives this sample Æt orwénum lífe translating in extremitate vitae which, arguably, addresses æt to a condition or state of being.  However, the really good news is that Mr Clever here, developing the habit of diving in the deep end in the face of such needling quibbles and hunting through his Anglo-Saxon Reader and the like failing to find exemplars, a guideline or at least something plausibly similar... had overlooked the entry in his basic Sweet’s Anglo-Saxon Primer where it had “specifying action wurdon æt sprǽċe ‘talked together’.” all along.

So, er... guess who feels a :-[ bit of a Silly Billy?

( All the same, I’d be happiest of all if ġesíþas reading this who know Old English better than either of us offered an opinion, he said ;) hinting.)



______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to be identified by the sign of the victory of the Holy Rood, owing to his ignorance of letters, has been asserted.


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 29, 2016, 03:13:15 PM



O.K. I have changed it back to “æt wiġe wið menn”
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on October 31, 2016, 05:11:11 PM



I have now finished translating The Holly and The Ivy.
 
The Holly and The Ivy                                Se Holen and Þæt Īfiġ                                   
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                         Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                 Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                         Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a blossom,                         Se holen birþ blōstm,
As white as lily flow’r,                                 Swā hwīte swā lilian cropp,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To be our dear Saviour                               Ūre lēof Hǣlend tō bēonne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a berry,                               Se holen birþ beriġ,
As red as any blood,                                   Swā read swā ǣniġ blōd,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To do poor sinners good.                            Hrēowliċe gyltendas bētanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                         And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                   Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                           Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a prickle,                             Se holen birþ pīl,
As sharp as any thorn,                                Swā scearp swā ǣniġ þorn,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
On Christmas Day in the morn.                  On Midwintres Dæġ in þǣm morgene.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a bark,                               Se holen birþ rind,
As bitter as the gall,                                   Swā biter swā se ġealla,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
For to redeem us all.                                  For ealle ūs tō ālīesanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                          Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on November 10, 2016, 03:09:26 PM

I have translated the first half of O Little Town Of Bethlehem.
 
O Little Town Of Bethlehem                                                 Lā Lȳtel Ċeaster Bethlehemes
 
O little town of Bethlehem                                                   Lā lȳtel ċeaster Bethlehemes
How still we see thee lie!                                                     Hū stille wē sēoþ þē licgan!
 Above thy deep and dreamless sleep                                Bufan þīnum dēopan and swefenlēasan slǣpe
 The silent stars go by;                                                        Þā swīgan steorran belēoraþ;

 Yet in thy dark streets shineth                                            Swāðēah in þīnum deorcum strǣtum scīnþ
 The everlasting Light;                                                        Þæt ēċeliċ lēoht;
 The hopes and fears of all the years                                   Þā tōhopan and eġas ealla þāra ġearas
 Are met in thee tonight.                                                     Mētaþ in þē þēos niht.
 
 For Christ is born of Mary,                                                 For Christ is ācenned of Marian,
 And gathered all above,                                                     And eall gadrodon bufan,
 While mortals sleep, the angels keep                                 Þenden slǣpþ feorhcyn, þā englas habbað
 Their watch of wondering love.                                          Þāra wæcce wundorliċe lufe.
 O morning stars, together                                                 Lā morgenliċe steorran, samod
 Proclaim the holy birth                                                       Ābēodaþ þā hāliġe ācennednesse
 And praises sing to God, the King,                                    And singaþ lofu tō Gode, þǣm cyninge,
 And peace to men on earth.                                              And sib tō men on middanġearde.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Phyllis on November 13, 2016, 02:25:39 PM
Eala David!

I know you will be able to explain, but here are some questions :)

Can I ask why Bethlehemes is genitive? I know the ME is "of Bethlehem" but is it possessive? I understand it as "named Bethlehem" and I do find genitive can confuse me...

I really like "Þā tōhopan and eġas ealla þāra ġearas" - nice rhythm

In verse 2, should "Christ" be "Crist"? Or is it an alternate spelling?

Also, "And sib tō men on middanġearde" - should it be "monnum"?

Sorry if I'm being slow

Wes hal
Phyllis


Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on November 13, 2016, 06:11:08 PM



Phyllis, do not feel intimidated by me. Basically I was making mistakes so thank you for pointing them out.
 
I do not understand why we have “of Bethlehem” in the modern English so I just took a chance on the genitive.
 
I think the “h” in Crist was WORD correcting my spelling but it might just have been a slip.
 
You are correct in saying that men should be monnum , though I would use mannum. I think I just put the modern English word in by mistake. So I probably did the same with “Crist”
 
I have no idea why ġegaderung changed the font after a few lines.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Phyllis on November 16, 2016, 12:46:53 PM
Don't worry, David. I'm not intimidated as such, just aware that you know so much more than I do so I assume I am mistaken!

That old spell-checker is a pain, isn't it? We had another classic this weekend - "Sutton Who" turned up on a handout! ;D

Wes hal
Phyllis
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on December 02, 2016, 11:40:51 AM
 
This is the first half of see amid the winter’s snow.
 
See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 Born for us on Earth below,                                       Wæcnaþ for ūs on eorðe niðer,
 See, the tender Lamb appears,                                  Sēoþ, þæt nīwerne lamb ætiweþ,
 Promised from eternal years.                                     Behātte of ēċum ġēarum.
 
 
Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                  Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                       Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                      Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Lo, within a manger lies                                              Lā, innan binne liþ
 He who built the starry skies;                                    Hē þe timbrode þā āstyrreda lyfta;
 He who, throned in height sublime,                           Hē þe, ġehālgod in hēanesse ūpliċe,
 Sits among the cherubim.                                         Sitt betwēonan þǣm ceruphīne.
 
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                    Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                  Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                       Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                      Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
 Say, ye holy shepherds, say,                                     Secgaþ, ġē hāliġe scēaphierdas, secgaþ,
 What your joyful news today;                                  Þe ēower blīðe spell tōdæġ;

 Wherefore have ye left your sheep                             Forhwȳ lǣfdon ġē ēower scēap
 On the lonely mountain steep?                                  On þǣm annan clifiġan munte?
 
 
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on December 05, 2016, 03:43:56 PM


I am still not happy with “God rest ye merry gentlemen”.  It just cannot be “ye” and in trying to accommodate that I came up with a very clumsy construction. I have decided that either
1. “ye” should be you but they thought “Didn’t they use ye for you in the old days”
2. “ye” stands for the where they used to use a “y” for “þ” or “ð”.
 
As they use “you” in the next line I have gone for “1” giving “God ēow lǣte ġesǣliġe burhmenn”. If the explanation is “2” my translation would be “God lǣte þā ġesǣliġe burhmenn”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on December 12, 2016, 12:55:51 PM
I have now finished translating See Amid the Winter’s Snow

See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 
 
See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 Born for us on Earth below,                                        Wæcnaþ for ūs on eorðe niðer,
 See, the tender Lamb appears,                                   Sēoþ, þæt nīwerne lamb ætiweþ,
 Promised from eternal years.                                      Behātte of ēċum ġēarum.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Lo, within a manger lies                                              Lā, innan binne liþ
 He who built the starry skies;                                     Hē þe timbrode þā āstyrreda lyfta;
 He who, throned in height sublime,                            Hē þe, ġehālgod in hēanesse ūpliċe,
 Sits among the cherubim.                                          Sitt betwēonan þǣm ceruphīne.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Say, ye holy shepherds, say,                                      Secgaþ, ġē hāliġe scēaphierdas, secgaþ,
 What your joyful news today;                                     Þe ēower blīðe spell tōdæġ;
 Wherefore have ye left your sheep                              Forhwȳ lǣfdon ġē ēower scēap
 On the lonely mountain steep?                                   On þǣm annan clifiġan munte?
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
“As we watched at dead of night,                               “Swā wacodon wē onmiddan nihte,
 Lo, we saw a wondrous light:                                     Lā, wē lōcodon wrǣtliċ  leoht:
 Angels singing ‘Peace On Earth’                                  Englas singaþ ‘Frið on Middanġeard’
 Told us of the Saviour's birth.”                                    Secgaþ ūs be þæs Hǣlendes  ācennednesse.”
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Sacred Infant, all divine,                                             Ġehālgod Lytling, eall godcund,
 What a tender love was Thine,                                    Þe biliwit lufu wæs þīn,
 Thus to come from highest bliss                                 Þus fram hīehst bliss tō dūne
 Down to such a world as this.                                     Þylcre worulde swā þisre cuman.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Teach, O teach us, Holy Child,                                    Tǣċe, lā ūs tǣċe, Hāliġ Ċild, 
 By Thy face so meek and mild,                                    Be Þīnum nebwlite swā manswǣsum and milde,
 Teach us to resemble Thee,                                        Tǣċe ūs Þe æfterhyriġan,
 In Thy sweet humility.                                                 In Þǣre līðan eaþmōdnesse.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Bowerthane on December 13, 2016, 03:09:58 PM

I’m not getting at ǽrmorgen David, but was their any special reason you preferred it to dagung?

Aha! So ceruphīne did exist as a loan word into Old English? Couldn’t trouble you for a source for that, by any chance?  I think the Hebrew original is keruvim, k’rūvīm or something else, but it has cognates in older, dead Semitic languages we only know from cuneiform ( or wedgehand, if you want an English word for it). 

If memory serves, ‘cherub’ is one of the most ancient words in contemporary use. 

Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on December 13, 2016, 05:05:32 PM


“Dagung” or “ǣrmorgen” – it doesn’t really matter to me. I just thought that “ǣrmorgen” was more self-descriptive.
 
 You had me scurrying through my books for “ceruphīne”. I knew that in an earlier carol I struggled with “cherubim” and “seraphim” and later I was chuffed when I came across “ceruphīn”. The problem was that I could not remember where I saw it. I thought it was probably when I was reading about loan words into West Germanic as these contained several religious words but not “cherubim”. I finally found it in Clark Hall’s dictionary. He gives the source as EL 750.  It appears that that is “the poem of Elene”.


I took it to be a collective noun so used the dative singular ending "-e". Should I have used the dative plural ending "-um"?
 
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: Linden on December 13, 2016, 07:25:07 PM

Aha! So ceruphīne did exist as a loan word into Old English? Couldn’t trouble you for a source for that, by any chance?  I think the Hebrew original is keruvim, k’rūvīm or something else, but it has cognates in older, dead Semitic languages we only know from cuneiform ( or wedgehand, if you want an English word for it). 


These are the lines (743-755a) of Elene

þara sint IIII         þe on flihte a
þa þegnunge         þrymme beweotigaþ
fore onsyne         eces deman,
singallice         singaþ in wuldre
hædrum stefnum         heofoncininges lof,
woða wlitegaste,         ond þas word cweðaþ
clænum stefnum,         (þam is ceruphin nama):
'Halig is se halga         heahengla god,
weoroda wealdend!         Is ðæs wuldres ful
heofun ond eorðe         ond eall heahmægen,
tire getacnod.'         Syndon tu on þam,
sigorcynn on swegle,         þe man seraphin
be naman hateð.   

Both ceruphin and seraphin are plural nouns.   They could have arrived in OE via Greek and Latin from the original Hebrew.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on December 14, 2016, 08:29:21 PM



Thank you for showing us that, Linden.
 
It seems to be West Saxon but with other influences. I did struggle with the language. However I decided that “þam is ceruphim nama” meant “whose name is Cherubim”. The use of is, rather than sind or even sint or syndon, suggests a collective noun rather than a plural. So I think that the only change I would make to “ceruphīne” is to change the “c” into “ċ” as we get a “ch” sound in the modern English and the “c” is next to an “e”.
Title: Re: Carols
Post by: David on January 19, 2017, 10:43:40 PM


David Jones has posted all fourteen carols on the website. To find them go to the home page and click on Education. Then click on Fourteen Carols for Christmas. Then click on Fourteen Carols for Christmas that appears on the left.


Alternatively click on the link below.


http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Fourteen-Carols-for-Christmas.pdf (http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Fourteen-Carols-for-Christmas.pdf)