Gegaderung

Gegaderung => Old English Language => Topic started by: Phyllis on November 27, 2016, 06:33:52 PM

Title: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on November 27, 2016, 06:33:52 PM
Just came across this today on Amazon and felt overawed that anyone might want and manage to do this :)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/%C3%86%C3%B0elgy%C3%B0e-Ellend%C3%A6da-Wundorlande-Adventures-Wonderland/dp/1782011129/ref=s9_simh_gw_g14_i1_r?_encoding=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=97K8RW9HNJDMM24ZDKJY&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=16f14aeb-bd11-4e9e-8c26-9ca0139074ee&pf_rd_i=desktop

Peter Baker, of "Introduction to Old English" fame, produced this. Perhaps you all knew already but I was delighted to find out! Another thing I may one day treat myself to.


Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Eanflaed on November 27, 2016, 08:07:12 PM
Hadn't heard of him (not having done OE course :-\ ), but checked him out - he's a professor in the English Department at the University of Virginia.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on November 27, 2016, 08:44:32 PM


It is funny that you should mention this book as I heard about it for the first time last week. Unfortunately I cannot remember where. I have quickly checked my language books, including one by Peter Baker but could not find it. Maybe it was on Amazon when looking for possible book presents.


I feel that I should get ti sometime but that probably means also getting the modern English version.


Will you now do something like this?
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on November 28, 2016, 02:51:42 PM
Will you now do something like this?

Sadly I think Lewis Carroll is a bit beyond me for the foreseeable future! At the moment I'm thinking about a song, having been inspired by David H's carols.



Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on November 28, 2016, 03:49:44 PM



I was interested that Phyllis said that I had inspired her to try translating a song. I intend to finish the year with one last carol. Then next year I want to translate a kiddies book, inspired by Phyllis. It will be good to add another of these stories into my bank of recitals.


For my own interest it would be nice to translate a slightly bigger book, probably for a slightly older child. I was not thinking of the size of the Lewis Carrol book. I think that members would soon get bored if I tried to do it on line.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Eanflaed on November 28, 2016, 10:08:16 PM
How about one of Dick King Smith's books? My children really enjoyed them and they are quite short. (e.g Dragon boy or Babe)
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Bowerthane on November 29, 2016, 02:21:06 PM

Great scot, how fascinating.  May just treat myself to a copy of that, with Yuletide hoving into view.  If the clients’ cheques come in, anyway.

But hasn’t somebody translated Winnie the Poo into Old English, too?

( And I saw The Hobbit in Latin in Dillons a while back.)

What next?  My vote would be for The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett or Frost in May by Antonia White ( which isn’t really a children’s book, but it’s the most accomplished and bittersweet novel about childhood I know) but does anyone have any preferences?  I’d be a bit interested in how Stig of the Dump worked out in Old English too, only I fear such a thing would pander to the negative caricature the Anglo-Saxons have as smelly grunts in mud huts, amongst people who don’t know better and even some who should.  I suppose The Wind in the Willows and The Borrowers ( why do I think that would work?)  would also be candidates, but what about Ballet Shoes, The Silver Sword or Northern Lights?  Would any of Roald Dahl’s books work in Old English, or do you think he’s too idiosyncratic?   Or anything by Hans Christian Anderson?  The Brothers Grim?  Bet this Southern professor would make a good job of Mark Twain’s Brer Rabbit stories, too.   

Or if the film Whistle Down the Wind was based on a novel, that? 

And there’s always Fifty Shades of Grey for those who had one of those kinds of childhood ( Dad got religion/ works for the BBC/ had some shady past in the Liberal Party, or something)

( Anything but C. S. Lewis, grr!!! Don’t get me started...)


Eanflaed: have you checked your personal messages? I’ve been trying to get through to you all week, but I’m not sure I’ve got sense out of the PM function and Virgin emails is, yet again, playing up.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on November 29, 2016, 06:03:25 PM
Ooh.

Brer Rabbit might be a go-er! One of my favourites is the one where he begs Brer Fox not to throw him in the bramble patch :)

Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Eanflaed on November 29, 2016, 09:06:30 PM
Blimey Bowerthane, who's going to translate all those tomes?? Tho I'd be interested to see someone try Fifty Shades of Grey ;D (haven't met anybody yet who's admitted to reading it!).

Yes I have finally read your PM - sorry, been away at a funeral - and have replied. How did you get that part of your post in red Btw????
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: cynewulf on December 01, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
Why not Beatrix Potter. Relatively short and with enduring charm...
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Eanflaed on December 01, 2016, 08:59:38 AM
Or How to Train Your Dragon by Cressida Cowell - it would be easy to turn a story of young Viking warriors into Anglo-Saxon ones. Some of the boys' names would be interesting to translate!
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Bowerthane on December 12, 2016, 02:57:23 PM
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Brer Rabbit might be a go-er! One of my favourites is the one where he begs Brer Fox not to throw him in the bramble patch

__________________________________________________________________________________________________




Welll... if my not 100% professional ability serves, “Just don’t throw me into that briar patch, over there!” works out as:

Ne lá wierp mé þǽm brémelsplotte, ġeond!


Though I dare say David can improve in that? 

But what would you do for ‘rabbit’?  Old English has no word for rabbits, since they are supposed to have been introduced by the Normans. 

The impression I’m under is that ‘coney’ either, a) existed in Old English but referred to a baby squirrel or, b) is another loan word, via French, from Latin that didn’t appear until Middle English as coni or conni.  ‘Rabbit’ itself seems to be a loan word from Dutch appearing first in Middle English as rabet, having picked up the French -et suffix.   

One might coin a kenning I suppose with *féol-hara, ‘burrowing hare’ or *holh-hara, ‘hole-hare’.  Yet ġesíþas might like to tell me what they think of *delf-hara ‘digging, burrowing hare’ since that’s as far as I’ve got with the lyric to White Rabbit, originally written and released by Jefferson Airplane in the 1960s. Emilíana Torrini's cover version of this supplies the backing music to the second of the science-fantasy action sequences in Sucker Punch.  The script of which I am still pegging away at.  The action scenes are somewhat skimpy on dialogue so I gave myself the lyrics of the music to do.

The first two verses are almost fit to be seen:

One pill makes you larger                                       
And one pill makes you small                                     

And the ones that mother gives you                 
Don’t do anything at all                                 
Go ask Alice                                                   
When she’s ten feet tall


And if you go chasing rabbits                                     
And you know you’re going to fall                             
Tell ‘em a hookah-smoking caterpillar           
Has given you the call                         
Call Alice                                                       

When she was just small                                 


Which are working out as:

An ǽlfcorn maciaþ þé micel
And án ǽlfcorn maciaþ þé smæl
And þá þá módor giefþ þé                                           
Lá ne dóþ náwiht
Gá ascian Alis
Ðonne héo béo tíen fét lang


And ġif þú gǽst delfharas éhtan
And þú cnáwest þú wilt feallan
Spell híe éþfæt-ǽþiende léafwyrm
Ǽr ġeaf þé clipunge
Cíeg Alis
Ðonne héo wæs ac lyttel


But this is a work in progress so please ( David!) don’t be too critical, just yet.  If memory serves posl has to replace ǽlfcorn if it wasn’t the other way round.  Also you’ll notice I plumped for spelling ‘Alice’ phonetically rather than risk being too clever, and introducing a cumbersome number of syllables, by looking into the etymology of the name. 

Yet now I can’t ignore Æðelgyðe, since Professor Baker has thought fit to use it!




                                                                                  BREAKING NEWS!!!


Guess what turned up on the doormat, this morning!  Yes, the clients’ cheques did come in, so I treated myself to a copy and, blimey, it’s here already.  I dunno… one minute I’m wondering which one of my teenage fan letters won Kate Bush over to the cause of civic patriotism, balanced budgets, competitive education and ‘middle of the road’ merchant capitalism: now this!  I swear I only ordered it from Amazon last Friday.  Even the illustrations are Old English-y.

Obviously I’m a bit excited but already I notice that the White Rabbit is simply the Hwíta Hara ( Baker uses acute accents instead of macrons, too) and you’re left to your general knowledge and common sense for how Alice ends up down his crypel.  The caterpillar is a tréowwyrm not the léafwyrm I plumped for, and Professor Baker’s appears to be sipping from a mead-horn, not the hookah I took trouble with ( have to check with the original!).  The Hwíta Hara has a scramaseax at his belt, too.

In the glossary for anachronisms I notice he’s got tídgemet for ‘timepiece’, which may be useful as I was struggling with that in the chapter from Dickens’ Great Expectations at which I am also pegging away.  Baker’s handling of the playing cards is going to be interesting for that, too. I notice that Mock-turtle soup becomes lygebyrdlingbroþ and the March Hare is, quite properly, the Hlýdhara.  Croquet is bíetlgamen, by the way.

Crumbs, what a lot to think about!  And I’m supposed to be working too; a new MS arrived in the same post, and having Before the Dawn to listen to has led me astray enough, already.  Cripes!
  Look, would everybody mind terribly if I just shot off and enjoyed my !%£* ing self!? I seriously doubted this would arrive in time for Yule.

Thanks again Phyllis for telling us about this.
:-* :-* :-*


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to be identified with those happy feet, I’ve got those happy feet, has been asserted.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Bowerthane on December 13, 2016, 02:50:15 PM
More news: the Cheshire cat is the Ceasterscíre Catt, the Mad Tea Party is Se Wóda Gebeorscipe, the Queen of Hearts is the Heortena Cwén ( in her Old English crown and robes), the Dormouse is the Sisemús, “Can you play croquet?” is Canst þú þæt bíetlgamen plegian?, “Off with his head!” is Ásléa him of þæt heafod! and “curiouser” is seldcúþlicor.


And seldcúþlicor
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on December 13, 2016, 04:38:02 PM
More news: the Cheshire cat is the Ceasterscíre Catt, the Mad Tea Party is Se Wóda Gebeorscipe, the Queen of Hearts is the Heortena Cwén ( in her Old English crown and robes), the Doormouse is the Sisemús, “Can you play croquet?” is Canst þú þæt bíetlgamen plegian?, “Off with his head!” is Ásléa him of þæt heafod! and “curiouser” is seldcúþlicor.


And seldcúþlicor


That all seems to make sense except I do not understand why “him of” is not “of him”
Then my dictionary says that “sisemūs” means “dormouse”. Now I know that “mūs” means “mouse” but what is this “sise”?
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Jayson on December 14, 2016, 06:59:35 PM
I've read Paul Kingsnorth's 'The Wake' which is in 'Anglish' and great fun, but are there any other books we are likely to know such as Alice in Wonderland, which have been translated into Old English?
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Bowerthane on December 15, 2016, 02:07:35 PM
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[E]xcept I do not understand why “him of” is not “of him”
________________________________________________


Right... well I’ve checked again David and “the Queen was in a furious passion, and went stamping about, and shouting ‘Off with his head!’ or ‘Off with her head!’ about once in a minute.” is definitely séo Cwén ágrymetode hetelíce and stóp hider and þider and hríemde “Ásléa him of þæt héafod!” oþþe “Ásléa hire of þæt héafod!” néah ǽlce minute.

Those are the fourth and fifth instances of ten times that an expression like them occurs in the whole text.

The first occasion is during the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party: “‘He’s murdering the time! Off with his head!”’ which becomes “Hé þone tíman forspilþ! Ásléa him of þæt héafod!” ( Professor Baker never dots Cs or Gs)

The second is: “The Queen turned crimson with fury, and, after glaring at her for a moment like a wild beast, screamed ‘Off with her head! Off – ’” which is Ðǽre Cwéne andwlita aréoded for ierre; and æfter héo lytel faec on híe wráþe starode swá swá wilddéor, héo ongan hríeman “Ásléa hire of þæt héafod! Ásléa hire –”

The third: “‘I see!’ said the Queen, who had meanwhile been examining the roses. ‘Off with their heads!’” which is, perhaps strangely Séo Cwén, þe þenden þá rósan sceawende wæs, cwæþ, “Ic þæt nú ongiete.  Ásléa him of þá héafdu!”

The sixth is: “The Queen had only one way of settling all difficulties, great or small. ‘Off with his head!’ she said, without even looking round.” Which becomes Séo Cwén gesémde ealla saca, ǽgþer ge þá máran ge þá lǽssan, on ánre wísan. “Ásléa him of þæt héafod!” cwæþ héo, ná furþum underbæc lóciende.”

The seventh and eighth are: “All the time they were playing the Queen never left off quarrelling with the other players, and shouting ‘Off with his head!’ or ‘Off with her head!’” which are Mid þám þe híe plegdon, séo Cwén nǽfre ne geswác þám óþrum plegerum to cídanne and “Ásléa him of þæt héafod!” oþþe “Ásléa hire of þæt héafod!” to hríemanne.

The ninth: “the Queen shrieked out. ‘Behead that Dormouse! Turn that Dormouse out of court! Suppress him! Pinch him! Off with his whiskers!’” which becomes séo Cwén hríemde, “Behéafda þá Sisemús! Ádrǽf þá Sisemús of þǽre dómstówe! Forþryce híe!  Tweng híe! Ásléa hire of þá wangbeardas!”

Lastly: “‘I won’t!’ said Alice./ “‘Off with her head!’ the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.” which becomes “Ic nylle!” cwæþ Æþelgýþ./ “Ásléa hire of þæt héafod!” séo Cwén hríemde swá hlúde swá héo meahte. Nán man ne styrede.

So whatever Professor Baker is doing, he’s doing it consistently. How do you see a problem? 

___________________________________________________
Now I know that “mūs” means “mouse” but what is this “sise”?
___________________________________________________


Funny you should remark upon that. Years ago I looked up ‘dormouse’ for some other reason because I remember cocking an eyebrow at that ‘sise-’.  There seems to be nothing else like it in Old English to give the merest clue as to what they thought they were doing.  Only I was rather hoping that somebody like you would know what it was!

I notice it’s die Haselmaus in Modern German and die Hasel is just ‘hazel’ as in ‘hazelnut’.  So that’s not much help.

Suggestions, anyone?

_______________________________________________
[P]robably means also getting the modern English version.
_______________________________________________

I found a free online text in UK English at the Gutenberg Project, David.

Also, what about Swallows and Amazons as a kiddies’ book to translate?  It’s a ripping yarn and well written.  I discovered the Ransomebooks reading them as bedtime stories to my younger brother when I was in my early teens, and felt myself turning green wishing I’d known about them at his age.  When my elder sisters and I were into, I confess, Enid Blyton ( including the girls’ school books – so by some miracle my masculinity and literary taste survived unscathed).

You can keep ‘Amazons’ in the original because Book 1 of Orosius gives an account of the original Amazons about a sixth of the way before the end. 

Either that or fall back on The Secret Garden or The Borrowers, I say.



---oo ?????? oo---


Actually... something Blytonesque may not be such a bad idea.  You must remember one of the send-ups the Comic Strip did of the Famous Five stories?  I well remember the second, Five on Love Island I think it was, because Julian got stoned, Anne stuck up for the Nazis ( “Well at least they cared about racial purity!”) and Uncle Quentin turned out to be a screaming homosexual.  My sisters and I ached with laughter at them, and something about the discarded outboard motor discomposed my mother, but I don’t mean to be facetious ( for a change).  Seriously: something tongue-in-cheek from everybody’s childhood will maximise the potential readership ( “appeal to children of all ages” as we blurb-writers say) and maintain interest when the Old English grammar gets laborious.  The French had some success using Monty Python to teach Modern English to their students, in this manner.

Lay hands on the script for Five on Love Island and translate that, why not? 
Illustrated with screenshots-or-whatever from the broadcast version. 

Unless of course somebody knows a funnier send-up of a well-known children’s book?  There was a far-left version of Tintin in which he became a street-fighting Panzerkommunist, a sorta Andreas Baader in plus twos, that if memory serves got trouble from the copyright holders.  Then I came across a Paddington Joins the National Front once.  Only I think that got a bit close to the bone, what with him calling on Mr Gruber to check up whether he were Jewish.





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The moral right of the author to be identified as the flying hogfish out of Jabberwocky has been asserted.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on December 15, 2016, 02:47:48 PM



My thinking was that “of” takes the dative case. “Him” is in the dative whereas “þæt hēafod” is not. So I took “Āslēa him of þæt hēafod” to mean “Cut the head off from him”.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on December 15, 2016, 07:49:18 PM
Sorry to have missed all the fun - I have been a little distracted elsewhere!

Now I really want the book too - one for the list, and we'll see what happens after Geol. It sounds brilliant Bowerthane :)

I am aware that I am beginning to get too old to really know what might appeal to people now. The parents where I work haven't read Enid Blyton as far as I can tell, so if we are assuming people would buy a children's story based on their own childhood reading, we may need to be a little more up-to-date.

Dick King-Smith perhaps? Or possibly Anne Fine? I hesitate to suggest Harry Potter...

I'm also thinking about copyright issues, just because I'm like that. The children's stories were cleared with the publisher. I guess if we ever got another story translated we would need to remember to do that too, unless it were a classic free of copyright :)




Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Eanflaed on December 16, 2016, 12:09:31 AM
Definitely Dick King Smith! (See my earlier post on this thread  :))
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on December 17, 2016, 04:51:41 PM
Definitely Dick King Smith! (See my earlier post on this thread  :))

Oops!  :-[
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on December 19, 2016, 04:35:27 PM
 
I have been translating “Let’s go home, Little Bear” by Martin Waddel into Old English. Then I was worried by Phyllls’s comments on copyright so I rang the publisher. They were quite interested in Old English but were worried when I said that there was open access to ġegaderung. I’m not surprised that someone who sells books would not like their contents broadcast on the internet. I wonder how Phyllis got them to agree. However they said I could fill in their 2 page permission form and they would look at it in January and give me a reply a couple of months later. I don’t think I’ll bother. I’ll just finish it for my own satisfaction and not put it on ġegaderung.
 
I think that we should try old fairy tales which are out of copyright such as those from Hans Christian Andersen or the Brothers Grimm.  I was wondering about Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines. I was thinking of the poem by Robert Browning which is not as grim as the brothers.  I would do a prose translation, not a poem. Is it too long for posting?
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: cynewulf on December 21, 2016, 12:49:32 AM
How about a translation of the aphorism 'It is better to apologise than to ask permission' ?!
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Bowerthane on December 22, 2016, 02:32:05 PM
EEEEEEEEK!
Urgent editorial amendment!!!


My memory has confabulated.  Again.  There’s no such Comic Strip film as Five on Love Island.  It was Five
go Mad on Mescaline and Dick who got stoned.  It was Julian who dunked him to bring him round, and Five go
Mad in Dorset where Uncle Quentin turned out to be a screaming homosexual.

Robbie Coltrane was in drag, Timmy was in George’s tent getting licky and
they all washed up in the Kneecap Hill Rehab Clinic.


::)


So that’s that straightened out.


Only I wouldn’t want any ġesíþas to go, you know, experimenting over
the Yuletide break on the strength of my last post.

So just, just stick to lashings of ginger beer everybody and don’t go doing
anything that would make me feel... responsible.


Oh, and:




:-* ::) ;D :-* ;)

Heafe éow glade Ġeoltíd and
glésume Ġear and níwe!


;D ::) :P :-* ;D





( Hope your year was as jammy as mine!)







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The moral right of the author to be identified thriving on a constant state of anxiety has been asserted.
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: cynewulf on December 22, 2016, 08:52:03 PM
or even 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools'….
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Phyllis on December 22, 2016, 09:32:43 PM
Many proverbs etc on the "clerkofoxford" blog

http://aclerkofoxford.blogspot.co.uk/p/old-english-wisdom.html

Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: Roseberry on February 26, 2017, 06:06:48 PM
I came across this site whilst looking for an OE word for quaint with regards to another thread. It seems to be connected to Peter S. Baker, so I thought it might be of interest to some of our members.

www.oldenglishaerobics.net/ (http://www.oldenglishaerobics.net/)
Title: Re: Æðelgyðe Ellendæda on Wundorlande
Post by: David on February 26, 2017, 09:15:50 PM
Thank you for the corrections, Roseberry. I do not think that he was mixing up the imperative with the indicative or subjunctive, rather just a spelling slip.


I would not recommend his book for learning old English.