Gegaderung

Gegaderung => Old English Language => Topic started by: David on January 07, 2017, 05:49:16 PM

Title: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on January 07, 2017, 05:49:16 PM



The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                          Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
I have done a prose translation of verse 1 of this poem.
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                   Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
 By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                           Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
 The river Weser, deep and wide,                                Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
 Washes its wall on the southern side;                       Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
 A pleasanter spot you never spied;                           Ġecwēmliċra prica þū næfre sāwe;
 But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                       Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
 Almost five hundred years ago,                                 Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
 To see the townsfolk suffer so                                   Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
 From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                           Forðǣm dēor, wæs earmung.

Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Blackdragon on January 07, 2017, 08:09:07 PM
Was you aware that there is an English version of the Hamelin story? 3 pipers make a deal with some witches of Beccles, Suffolk to put magic in their instruments., They strike a bargain with the town council and lure all the plague of rats into the River Waveny. The good people of Beccles place the money (45,000 marks) on the table for them to collect but they never do, and disappear. However, at the same time each year 3 ghosts are heard piping a tune near the river Waveny! I once wrote a version of the tale in one of my books as well as making a song from it. :-\
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: John Nicholas Cross on January 07, 2017, 11:09:51 PM
Also of interest, is that this folk tale may be a folk memory of the 'Children's Crusade' of 1212 AD.  Quite a thought?
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on January 22, 2017, 03:25:41 PM
The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                         Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
I have done a prose translation of the first two verses of this poem. So far I have had a couple of interesting replies but neither about the translation. I do not know how long I will continue if this carries on like that.  There were a few problems and in the last line I have changed the translation of “vermin” from “dēor” to “fūl dēor"”
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                   Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                           Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
The river Weser, deep and wide,                                Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
Washes its wall on the southern side;                       Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
A pleasanter spot you never spied;                           Ġecwēmliċra prica þū næfre sāwe;
But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                       Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
Almost five hundred years ago,                                 Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
To see the townsfolk suffer so                                   Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                           Forðǣm fūl dēor, wæs earmung.
 
Rats!                                                                         Rætas!
They fought the dogs and killed the cats,                  Hīe ġefeohtaþ þā hund and ācweliaþ þā cattas,
And bit the babies in the cradles,                              And biton þā lȳtlingas in þǣm cradolum,
And ate the cheeses out of the vats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vats),                         And ǣton þā ċysas  ūt of þā fatu,
And licked the soup from the cooks' own ladles,       And liċċodon þæt broð fram þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
Split open the kegs (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#kegs) of salted sprats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#sprats),                         Clufon rȳman þā fatu ġesyltra sprotta,
Made nests inside men's Sunday hats,                      Macodon nest innan manna Sunesdæġes hætum,
And even spoiled the women's chats,                        And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga,
By drowning their speaking                                       Þurh ādyfan hiera ġemaðel
With shrieking and squeaking                                    Þurh ċirmane and hwicunge
In fifty different sharps and flats.                               Unġemede unġemet.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on January 25, 2017, 03:48:12 PM
__________
Sunesdæġes
__________

Shouldn’t that be sunnandæġes?

__________
ūt of þā fatu
__________

Is the ūt strictly necessary?

______________________________________________
And liċċodon þæt broð fram þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
______________________________________________

I would have rendered this as And liċċodon þæt broð ūt þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas, too.

For ‘vermin’ why not *mūscynne?  I always try to be as specific as can be, and fūl dēor isn’t exactly giving away a lot to the Russians.

Also, did you try to see if Old Saxon forms of Hamelin, Hanover, Brunswick and Weser are recorded, or anything early enough to see whether etymological translations could be made?  I had a notion to use Old Saxon to render the three sentences of Modern German dialogue in my script of Sucker Punch, but googling failed to turn up much that seemed trustworthy about Old Saxon ( and Old High German was worse), only that it seemed so ill-recorded it left me wondering whether it was worth further trouble.  However, if memory serves ‘Weser’ is just an archaic cognate of Modern German Wasser, ‘water’. In which case you could get away with Sēo ǣ Wæter, or make a proper noun of the Old Saxon word for ‘water’ if you can find it. I wonder also if the ‘-over’ end of Hanover is cognate with Old English ofer for ‘bank ( of a body of water)’, so something like *Hanofer would be better integrated.  As for Brunswick, I’ll bet that could transliterate as *Brúnwíc, and I wonder if Hamelin itself could be Hamelingas?

Ah, you can use prica for ‘spot’! Can you?  I couldn’t seem to nail an instance of it for ‘specific location’ I was happy with, only for ‘grubby mark’, in Old English usage. I plumped for plot or splott, so please liberate me if I’m wrong because I don’t much like them in the sense I’ve settled for.   





Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on January 25, 2017, 06:06:00 PM
Thank you Bowerthane. I was completely wrong on the first point.

I am happy to go along with what you say with the next two.

I am not happy with “mūscynne”. The point was that he was not specific until the next line where we get “rats”.

I am a bit wary about “translating” place names after “Hlāfhūs” and the Anglo-Saxons did actually use that.

Splott might be better than prica as prica tends to be very small.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 03, 2017, 04:10:29 PM
I have now translated the first three verses.
 
The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                          Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                   Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
 By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                           Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
 The river Weser, deep and wide,                                Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
 Washes its wall on the southern side;                       Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
 A pleasanter spot you never spied;                           Ġecwēmliċra splott þū næfre sāwe;
 But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                       Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
 Almost five hundred years ago,                                 Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
 To see the townsfolk suffer so                                   Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
 From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                           Forðǣm fūl dēor, wæs earmung.
 
Rats!                                                                         Rætas!
 They fought the dogs and killed the cats,                 Hīe ġefeohtaþ þā hund and ācweliaþ þā cattas,
 And bit the babies in the cradles,                              And biton þā lȳtlingas in þǣm cradolum,
 And ate the cheeses out of the vats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vats),                        And ǣton þā ċysas ūt þā fatu,
 And licked the soup from the cooks' own ladles,      And liċċodon þæt broð ūt þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
 Split open the kegs (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#kegs) of salted sprats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#sprats),                        Clufon rȳman þā fatu ġesyltra sprotta,
 Made nests inside men's Sunday hats,                     Macodon nest innan manna Sunnandæġes hætum,
 And even spoiled the women's chats,                       And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga,
 By drowning their speaking                                      Þurh ādyfan hiera ġemaðel
 With shrieking and squeaking                                   Þurh ċirmane and hwicunge
 In fifty different sharps and flats.                             Unġemede unġemet.
 
At last the people in a body                                     Æt nyhstan þæt folc teofenodon
 To the Town Hall came flocking:                              Cumanne tō þǣm burgsæle:
 “Tis clear,'' cried they, “our Mayor's a noddy;          “Hit is ġeswutelung” cwædon hīe “ūre Burgealdor is hnoc”
 And as for our Corporation -- shocking                   And swā ġeondscēawan ūre Ġield  -- scamaþ
 To think we buy gowns lined with ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine)                 Þencan þe wē bycgaþ  brattas mid hearmascinnenum  fnadum
 For dolts (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#dolts) that can't or won't determine                    For sottum þe ne magon nyllaþ ġerǣdan
 What's best to rid us of our vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin)!                         Þe is betst tō āhreddanne ūs of ūrum dēorum!
 You hope, because you're old and obese,                Ġē hopiaþ, forðǣm ġē sind ealde and oferfǣtte, 
 To find in the furry civic robe ease?                          Findan in þæs scynnes burgrēafe īeþnesse?
 Rouse up, sirs! Give your brains a racking               Onstyraþ, menn! Āhrēraþ ēowere brægen
 To find the remedy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#remedy) we're lacking,                             Findan þā bōte þe wē forðoliaþ,
 Or, sure as fate, we'll send you packing!''                 Oððe, sicor swā wyrd, wē ēow tōforlǣtaþ!”
 At this the Mayor and Corporation                           Æt þissum se Burgealdor and þæt Ġield                   
 Quaked with a mighty consternation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#consternation).                      Cwaciaþ mid mihtiġre swearcmodnesse.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 18, 2017, 04:46:04 PM
As I feared this looks as though it is too heavy going for ġegaderung but I have now translated the first four verses anyway.
 
The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                            Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                    Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
 By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                           Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
 The river Weser, deep and wide,                                Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
 Washes its wall on the southern side;                        Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
 A pleasanter spot you never spied;                            Ġecwēmliċra splott þū næfre sāwe;
 But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                        Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
 Almost five hundred years ago,                                  Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
 To see the townsfolk suffer so                                    Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
 From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                            Forðǣm fūl dēor, wæs earmung.
 
Rats!                                                                          Rætas!
 They fought the dogs and killed the cats,                  Hīe ġefeohtaþ þā hund and ācweliaþ þā cattas,
 And bit the babies in the cradles,                               And biton þā lȳtlingas in þǣm cradolum,
 And ate the cheeses out of the vats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vats),                          And ǣton þā ċysas ūt þā fatu,
 And licked the soup from the cooks' own ladles,       And liċċodon þæt broð ūt þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
 Split open the kegs (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#kegs) of salted sprats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#sprats),                          Clufon rȳman þā fatu ġesyltra sprotta,
 Made nests inside men's Sunday hats,                      Macodon nest innan manna Sunnandæġes hætum,
 And even spoiled the women's chats,                        And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga,
 By drowning their speaking                                        Þurh ādyfan hiera ġemaðel
 With shrieking and squeaking                                     Þurh ċirmane and hwicunge
 In fifty different sharps and flats.                                Unġemede unġemet.
 
At last the people in a body                                        Æt nyhstan þæt folc teofenodon
 To the Town Hall came flocking:                                 Cumanne tō þǣm burgsæle:
 “Tis clear,'' cried they, “our Mayor's a noddy;             “Hit is ġeswutelung” cwædon hīe “ūre Burgealdor is hnoc”
 And as for our Corporation -- shocking                      And swā ġeondscēawan ūre Ġield  -- scamaþ
 To think we buy gowns lined with ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine)                    Þencan þe wē bycgaþ  brattas mid hearmascinnenum  fnadum
 For dolts (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#dolts) that can't or won't determine                       For sottum þe ne magon nyllaþ ġerǣdan
 What's best to rid us of our vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin)!                            Þe is betst tō āhreddanne ūs of ūrum dēorum!
 You hope, because you're old and obese,                   Ġē hopiaþ, forðǣm ġē sind ealde and oferfǣtte, 
 To find in the furry civic robe ease?                             Findan in þæs scynnes burgrēafe īeþnesse?
 Rouse up, sirs! Give your brains a racking                  Onstyraþ, menn! Āhrēraþ ēowere brægen
 To find the remedy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#remedy) we're lacking,                                Findan þā bōte þe wē forðoliaþ,
 Or, sure as fate, we'll send you packing!''                    Oððe, sicor swā wyrd, wē ēow tōforlǣtaþ!”
 At this the Mayor and Corporation                              Æt þissum se Burgealdor and þæt Ġield                   
 Quaked with a mighty consternation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#consternation).                         Cwaciaþ mid mihtiġre swearcmodnesse.
 
An hour they sat in council,                                       Hīe sǣton in ġemōt for ānre tīde,
 At length the Mayor broke silence:                            Æt nȳhstan se Burgealdor bræc stillness:
 “For a guilder (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder) I'd my ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine) gown sell;                     “For peninge iċ cȳpe mīnre hearmascinnenum bratt;
 I wish I were a mile hence!                                        Iċ wille þe iċ sīe mīl hēonan!
 It's easy to bid one rack one's brain --                      Biddan þe mann āhreraþ āgen brægen --
 I'm sure my poor head aches again,                          Iċ eom ġewiss þe mīn earme hēafod æcþ eft,
 I've scratched it so, and all in vain                             Iċ hit clāwode swā, and eall īdel
 Oh for a trap, a trap, a trap!''                                     Ēalā for feallan, feallan, feallan!” 
 Just as he said this, what should hap                        Efne swā sæġde hē þis, hwæt ġelimpþ
 At the chamber door but a gentle tap?                      Ac man cnucode smoltlīce æt þæs būres dūra?
 “Bless us,'' cried the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor), “what's that?''               “Bletsiaþ ūs,” ċirmþ se Burgealdor, “hwæt is þæt?”
 (With the Corporation as he sat,                               (swā sæt hē mid þǣm Ġield,
 Looking little though wondrous fat;                           Ætīewede lȳtel þēah wrǣlīce fǣtt; 
 Nor brighter was his eye, nor moister                        Ne beorhtre wæs his ēage ne fūhtre
 Than a too-long-opened oyster,                                 Ðonne tō lange open ostre,
 Save when at noon his paunch (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#paunch) grew mutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mutinous)          Būton þonne æt middæġtīd his fǣtt maga wearþ unġerecliċ
 For a plate of turtle green and glutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#glutinous))                   For disc sæbyrdes grēnes and clibbores)
 "Only a scraping of shoes on the mat?                      “Ǣnliċ scearfung scōna on þǣre meattan? 
 Anything like the sound of a rat                                 Āwiht ġelīċ se swēġ rætes
 Makes my heart go pit-a-pat!''                                   Dēþ mine heortan slecgēttan pit-apat!”
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on February 22, 2017, 02:32:39 PM

Did you overlook stund for ‘hour’?  I see now that tīd can be ‘hour’ too, but the impression I get from Old English usage is they use stund when they intend to be specific.

“And even spoiled the women's chats,”

And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga,

Where’s the ‘women’s’?



“In fifty different sharps and flats.”

Unġemede unġemet.

Don’t go away...




Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 22, 2017, 03:50:03 PM
Thank you for your comments Bowerthane.
 
I did not overlook “stund”, I just have not seen it before. I used “tīd” as it is the only word that I have specicifcally seen to mean hour. It looks as though stund, like tīd, can specifically mean hour or just generally a period of time.
 
Missing out “women’s” was just a slip. I was probably wondering which word to use as I do not really like any of them. I would probably plump for “wīfa”. In the modern English the “-‘s” in the plural is interesting. “Men’s” seems normal and I could probably stretch to “feet’s” and “teeth’s” in some circumstances but I cannot imagine “mice’s”. I think that I would have to use “of mice”
 
“In fifty sharps and flats” was too idiomatic for me. I had to try a much freer  translation. 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on February 24, 2017, 03:03:13 PM

I’m back.


_____________________________
“In fifty different sharps and flats.”

Unġemede unġemet.
_____________________________

_________________________________________________________________________
“In fifty sharps and flats” was too idiomatic for me. I had to try a much freer  translation.
_________________________________________________________________________


Now call me “Mister Picky” but, a) Old English has the adjective scearp in the sense ‘sharp of speech’,  ‘energetic, sharp ( of medicine, sight, intellect)’ and the adverbial form includes ‘keenly ( of seeing)’ so I think, as a poetic metaphor, you’d get away with anticipating the noun for ‘sharp note’ here.  Also b) although Modern English ‘flat’ is a loan word from Old Norse not recorded until after the Conquest, cǽġ was nowhere near the meaning of modern ‘key’ as in ‘musical key’,  and Old English has no very good equivalent to ‘parp’, ‘blat’ or ‘sound a duck makes’ ( that I can find), it does seem to have the strong masculine noun fnæst for ‘blowing, blast, breath, voice; puff, flatus’ as well as the strong feminine swóretung with one or two Ts for‘deep drawing of the breath, sigh ( as a sign of trouble), sobbing, moaning, breathing hard from illness or labour, hard breathing, gasping, panting.’

So I’d put my money on:


On fīftig scearpum and swórettungum and unġelícum


With an option on:


On fīftig scearpum and fnæstum and unġelícum



( Though I can’t help but notice that the adjective efen means ‘even ( temper)’ but smēþe includes ‘soothing’ and ‘harmonious ( sound)’, so maybe you’d get away with those, too.)

 
Or of course we can all go and do something sensible.  But are you like me, David, in that you find that the daffiness of incongruous material ain’t that daft, because they generate all the best intellectual challenges?  Not so long ago I downloaded the lyric to The Monster Mash, a comedy chart topper I remember from the early 1970s, to join Ouch! by The Rutles ( Eric Idle’s send-up of Help! by The Beatles), Suicide is Painless from M*A*S*H, Stonehenge by Spinal Tap, The Vegetation by Peter Cook and others with an eye to rendering them into the Old Mother Tongue, one fine day.  Already The Monster Mash has made me realise how subjective differences between modern dances have become, and what a challenge it will be to distinguish between a ‘mash’ and a ‘jive’ in the language of Bede and Beowulf, for instance.

I feel sure this is exercising my mental muscles, somehow.


( Oh yes ġesíþas, you have been warned! Though when I last got a clear run at it, I was on the last ‘nip and tuck’ stage of a rendering of The Song of Deborah from the Old Testament.  Developed an interest in it through my kiddies’ book because, when I last got a clear run at that, I was tackling Mercia’s 911 witanmoot when they discuss whether to hazard the wyrd of Free Mercia on such a bizarre novelty as petticoat rule, with the churchmen arguing the biblical precedents. 

So if you do get any Old English translation out of me sooner rather than later, it’ll be something sensible for a change.)


Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 24, 2017, 06:23:42 PM
Bowerthane, I appreciate your efforts.


I was coming up with something similar but felt that it did not have the same meaning in old English.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 26, 2017, 09:47:07 AM
I am really stuck on the old English for quaint.


Any suggestions?
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on February 26, 2017, 02:32:12 PM
Would 'seld-cuþ' or 'seld-lic' or its variant 'sellic' do?
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on February 26, 2017, 06:39:02 PM
Thank you Linden. That covers one aspect. Then ċildliċ and ǣrdæġliċ seem to cover other aspects. Maybe I want too much and should just go with your suggestion.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on February 26, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
I was thinking that the clothes are described later both as being 'old-fangled' and brightly coloured (i.e. rather child-like) so getting across the idea of the strange and wonderful at this point might be a good approach to getting across the surprise of his appearance?  As far as I know, there is no OE word that carries all the senses of quaint which has changed its meaning umpteen times since it first appeared in English in the 13th C. It seems to have retained a vestige of its older senses of 'ingenious' and 'strange' along with the modern 'attractively unusual or old-fashioned'.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on March 13, 2017, 03:21:36 PM
I have now translated the first five verses anyway.
 
The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                           Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                    Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
 By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                            Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
 The river Weser, deep and wide,                                 Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
 Washes its wall on the southern side;                        Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
 A pleasanter spot you never spied;                            Ġecwēmliċra splott þū næfre sāwe;
 But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                        Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
 Almost five hundred years ago,                                  Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
 To see the townsfolk suffer so                                    Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
 From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                            Forðǣm fūl dēor, wæs earmung.
 
Rats!                                                                          Rætas!
 They fought the dogs and killed the cats,                  Hīe ġefeohtaþ þā hund and ācweliaþ þā cattas,
 And bit the babies in the cradles,                               And biton þā lȳtlingas in þǣm cradolum,
 And ate the cheeses out of the vats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vats),                          And ǣton þā ċysas ūt þā fatu,
 And licked the soup from the cooks' own ladles,        And liċċodon þæt broð ūt þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
 Split open the kegs (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#kegs) of salted sprats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#sprats),                          Clufon rȳman þā fatu ġesyltra sprotta,
 Made nests inside men's Sunday hats,                       Macodon nest innan manna Sunnandæġes hætum,
 And even spoiled the women's chats,                         And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga wīfa,
 By drowning their speaking                                         Þurh ādyfan hiera ġemaðel
 With shrieking and squeaking                                      Þurh ċirmane and hwicunge
 In fifty different sharps and flats.                                 Unġemede unġemet.
 
At last the people in a body                                        Æt nyhstan þæt folc teofenodon
 To the Town Hall came flocking:                                 Cumanne tō þǣm burgsæle:
 “Tis clear,'' cried they, “our Mayor's a noddy;             “Hit is ġeswutelung” cwædon hīe “ūre Burgealdor is hnoc”
 And as for our Corporation -- shocking                      And swā ġeondscēawan ūre Ġield  -- scamaþ
 To think we buy gowns lined with ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine)                    Þencan þe wē bycgaþ  brattas mid hearmascinnenum  fnadum
 For dolts (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#dolts) that can't or won't determine                       For sottum þe ne magon nyllaþ ġerǣdan
 What's best to rid us of our vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin)!                            Þe is betst tō āhreddanne ūs of ūrum dēorum!
 You hope, because you're old and obese,                   Ġē hopiaþ, forðǣm ġē sind ealde and oferfǣtte, 
 To find in the furry civic robe ease?                            Findan in þæs scynnes burgrēafe īeþnesse?
 Rouse up, sirs! Give your brains a racking                 Onstyraþ, menn! Āhrēraþ ēowere brægen
 To find the remedy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#remedy) we're lacking,                               Findan þā bōte þe wē forðoliaþ,
 Or, sure as fate, we'll send you packing!''                  Oððe, sicor swā wyrd, wē ēow tōforlǣtaþ!”
 At this the Mayor and Corporation                             Æt þissum se Burgealdor and þæt Ġield                   
 Quaked with a mighty consternation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#consternation).                        Cwaciaþ mid mihtiġre swearcmodnesse.
 
An hour they sat in council,                                       Hīe sǣton in ġemōt for ānre tīde,
 At length the Mayor broke silence:                            Æt nȳhstan se Burgealdor bræc stillness:
 “For a guilder (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder) I'd my ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine) gown sell;                      “For scillinge iċ cȳpe mīnre hearmascinnenum bratt;
 I wish I were a mile hence!                                         Iċ wille þe iċ sīe mīl hēonan!
 It's easy to bid one rack one's brain --                       Biddan þe mann āhreraþ āgen brægen --
 I'm sure my poor head aches again,                          Iċ eom ġewiss þe mīn earme hēafod æcþ eft,
 I've scratched it so, and all in vain                              Iċ hit clāwode swā, and eall īdel
 Oh for a trap, a trap, a trap!''                                      Ēalā for feallan, feallan, feallan!” 
 Just as he said this, what should hap                         Efne swā sæġde hē þis, hwæt ġelimpþ
 At the chamber door but a gentle tap?                       Ac man cnucode smoltlīce æt þæs būres dūra?
 “Bless us,'' cried the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor), “what's that?''                “Bletsiaþ ūs,” ċirmþ se Burgealdor, “hwæt is þæt?”
 (With the Corporation as he sat,                                (swā sæt hē mid þǣm Ġield,
 Looking little though wondrous fat;                           Ætīewede lȳtel þēah wrǣlīce fǣtt; 
 Nor brighter was his eye, nor moister                         Ne beorhtre wæs his ēage ne fūhtre
 Than a too-long-opened oyster,                                  Ðonne tō lange open ostre,
 Save when at noon his paunch (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#paunch) grew mutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mutinous)           Būton þonne æt middæġtīd his fǣtt maga wearþ unġerecliċ
 For a plate of turtle green and glutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#glutinous))                    For disc sæbyrdes grēnes and clibbores)
 "Only a scraping of shoes on the mat?                      “Ǣnliċ scearfung scōna on þǣre meattan? 
 Anything like the sound of a rat                                  Āwiht ġelīċ se swēġ rætes
 Makes my heart go pit-a-pat!''                                    Dēþ mine heortan slecgēttan pit-apat!”
 
“Come in!'' -- the Mayor cried, looking bigger             “Ingā!” --  se Burgealdor clipaþ, ætwiende māra
 And in did come the strangest figure!                          And fregensylliċ ansīen inēode!
 His queer long coat from heel to head                          His elelendisc lang cyrtel fram hēlan tō heafode
 Was half of yellow and half of red,                                Wæs healf ġeolwes and healf rēades,
 And he himself was tall and thin,                                 And hē self wæs lang and þynne,
 With sharp blue eyes, each like a pin,                          Mid cēnum hǣwenum ēaġum, ġehwæðer līcaþ pinn,
 And light loose hair, yet swarthy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#swarthy) skin                           And lēohtum unfæstum hǣre, ġīet earpre hyde,
 No tuft on cheek nor beard on chin,                             Ne toppe on hlēore ne beard on ċinne,
 But lips where smile went out and in;                           Ac welerum þǣr ūtgǣð and inǣð weler;
 There was no guessing his kith and kin:                       Man ne mihte ārædan his cyþþe and cynn:
 And nobody could enough admire                                And nān mihte  ġenōg wundrian
 The tall man and his quaint (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#quaint) attire (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#attire).                                Þone langan wer and his seldiċe claðas.
 Quoth (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#quoth) one: “It's as my great-grandsire,                      Cwæþ ān: “Hit is swā ġif mīn ǣrfæder,
 Starting up at the Trump of Doom's tone,                   Sturtende æt þæs Blǣdhornes Dōmes swēge,
 Had walked this way from his painted tombstone!''      Ġēong on þisse wise fram his ġefægdum byrgelsstāne!”

Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on March 24, 2017, 02:27:45 PM
CONGRATULATIONS ;D  on winning the Alfred Prize, David!



Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on March 24, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Thank you, Bowerthane. However that was not what I expected to see when clicking on the Pied Piper thread.


I felt that the 3 entries made an impressive show in issue 180, but it would have been nice to have had more entries. Hopefully my letter might encourage a couple more next time. I'm afraid that I can't help with this year's prize as poetry is a closed book to me. Maybe Martin's article will open my eyes a little.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: cynewulf on March 24, 2017, 09:15:15 PM
My congratulations added. The latest edition of Widowinde is superlative. A fine job by all involved. Keep up the brilliant work !
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Phyllis on March 26, 2017, 10:45:30 AM
Absolutely echo what Cynewulf says - so pleased for you, David!

And a great magazine (again)

It's my perfect Mother's Day gift actually - I am going to sit and read it in peace :)
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on March 28, 2017, 09:12:15 AM
I have just noticed that in the title of my translation I wrote “Sprǣce” where it should be “Sprǣċ”. I could argue that I added the “e” to palatise the “c” as some Anglo Saxons did. In fact I forgot the dot and got carried away with the rest of the title being in the genitive.
 
At the end of the week I shall get back to posting the “Pied Piper” here.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on April 02, 2017, 08:08:22 AM
I have now translated the first six verses.
 
The Pied Piper of Hamelin                                           Se Fāga Pīpere Hamelines
 
Hamelin Town's in Brunswick,                                    Hamelin burg is in EaldSeaxlande,
 By famous Hanover (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hanover) city;                                            Be cūþum Hanover  ceastre;
 The river Weser, deep and wide,                                 Sēo ǣ Weser, dēop and brād,
 Washes its wall on the southern side;                        Hrīnþ hiere burgweall æt sūþhealfe;
 A pleasanter spot you never spied;                            Ġecwēmliċra splott þū næfre sāwe;
 But, when begins my ditty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ditty),                                        Ac, þā beġinþ mīn lēoþ,
 Almost five hundred years ago,                                  Fulnēah fīf hund ġēaras ġēo,
 To see the townsfolk suffer so                                    Sēon þā burgfolc adrēogaþ swā
 From vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin), was a pity.                                            Forðǣm fūl dēor, wæs earmung.
 
Rats!                                                                          Rætas!
 They fought the dogs and killed the cats,                  Hīe ġefeohtaþ þā hund and ācweliaþ þā cattas,
 And bit the babies in the cradles,                               And biton þā lȳtlingas in þǣm cradolum,
 And ate the cheeses out of the vats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vats),                          And ǣton þā ċysas ūt þā fatu,
 And licked the soup from the cooks' own ladles,       And liċċodon þæt broð ūt þāra cōca āgenra hlædelas,
 Split open the kegs (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#kegs) of salted sprats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#sprats),                          Clufon rȳman þā fatu ġesyltra sprotta,
 Made nests inside men's Sunday hats,                       Macodon nest innan manna Sunnandæġes hætum,
 And even spoiled the women's chats,                         And furðum mierredon þāra mōtunga wīfa,
 By drowning their speaking                                         Þurh ādyfan hiera ġemaðel
 With shrieking and squeaking                                     Þurh ċirmane and hwicunge
 In fifty different sharps and flats.                                Unġemede unġemet.
 
At last the people in a body                                        Æt nyhstan þæt folc teofenodon
 To the Town Hall came flocking:                                 Cumanne tō þǣm burgsæle:
 “Tis clear,'' cried they, “our Mayor's a noddy;             “Hit is ġeswutelung” cwædon hīe “ūre Burgealdor is hnoc”
 And as for our Corporation -- shocking                      And swā ġeondscēawan ūre Ġield  -- scamaþ
 To think we buy gowns lined with ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine)                    Þencan þe wē bycgaþ  brattas mid hearmascinnenum fnadum
 For dolts (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#dolts) that can't or won't determine                       For sottum þe ne magon nyllaþ ġerǣdan
 What's best to rid us of our vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin)!                            Þe is betst tō āhreddanne ūs of ūrum dēorum!
 You hope, because you're old and obese,                   Man hopaþ, forðǣm ġē sind ealde and oferfǣtte, 
 To find in the furry civic robe ease?                             Findan in þæs scynnes burgrēafe īeþnesse?
 Rouse up, sirs! Give your brains a racking                  Onstyraþ, menn! Āhrēraþ ēowere brægen
 To find the remedy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#remedy) we're lacking,                                Findan þā bōte þe wē forðoliaþ,
 Or, sure as fate, we'll send you packing!''                    Oððe, sicor swā wyrd, wē ēow tōforlǣtaþ!”
 At this the Mayor and Corporation                               Æt þissum se Burgealdor and þæt Ġield                   
 Quaked with a mighty consternation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#consternation).                          Cwaciaþ mid mihtiġre swearcmodnesse.
 
An hour they sat in council,                                        Hīe sǣton in ġemōt for ānre tīde,
 At length the Mayor broke silence:                              Æt nȳhstan se Burgealdor bræc stillness:
 “For a guilder (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder) I'd my ermine (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ermine) gown sell;                       “For scillinge iċ cȳpe mīnre hearmascinnenum bratt;
 I wish I were a mile hence!                                          Iċ wille þe iċ sīe mīl hēonan!
 It's easy to bid one rack one's brain --                        Biddan þe mann āhreraþ āgen brægen --
 I'm sure my poor head aches again,                            Iċ eom ġewiss þe mīn earme hēafod æcþ eft,
 I've scratched it so, and all in vain                               Iċ hit clāwode swā, and eall īdel
 Oh for a trap, a trap, a trap!''                                       Ēalā for feallan, feallan, feallan!” 
 Just as he said this, what should hap                          Efne swā sæġde hē þis, hwæt ġelimpþ
 At the chamber door but a gentle tap?                        Ac man cnucode smoltlīce æt þæs būres dūra?
 “Bless us,'' cried the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor), “what's that?''                 “Bletsiaþ ūs,” ċirmþ se Burgealdor, “hwæt is þæt?”
 (With the Corporation as he sat,                                 (swā sæt hē mid þǣm Ġield,
 Looking little though wondrous fat;                             Ætīewede lȳtel þēah wrǣlīce fǣtt; 
 Nor brighter was his eye, nor moister                          Ne beorhtre wæs his ēage ne fūhtre
 Than a too-long-opened oyster,                                  Ðonne tō lange open ostre,
 Save when at noon his paunch (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#paunch) grew mutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mutinous)           Būton þonne æt middæġtīd his fǣtt maga wearþ unġerecliċ
 For a plate of turtle green and glutinous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#glutinous))                    For disc sæbyrdes grēnes and clibbores)
 "Only a scraping of shoes on the mat?                        “Ǣnliċ scearfung scōna on þǣre meattan? 
 Anything like the sound of a rat                                   Āwiht ġelīċ se swēġ rætes
 Makes my heart go pit-a-pat!''                                     Dēþ mine heortan slecgēttan pit-apat!”
 
“Come in!'' -- the Mayor cried, looking bigger            “Ingā!” --  se Burgealdor clipaþ, ætwiende māra
 And in did come the strangest figure!                        And fregensylliċ ansīen inēode!
 His queer long coat from heel to head                        His elelendisc lang cyrtel fram hēlan tō heafode
 Was half of yellow and half of red,                              Wæs healf ġeolwes and healf rēades,
 And he himself was tall and thin,                               And hē self wæs lang and þynne,
 With sharp blue eyes, each like a pin,                        Mid cēnum hǣwenum ēaġum, ġehwæðer līcaþ pinn,
 And light loose hair, yet swarthy (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#swarthy) skin                         And lēohtum unfæstum hǣre, ġīet earpre hyde,
 No tuft on cheek nor beard on chin,                           Ne toppe on hlēore ne beard on ċinne,
 But lips where smile went out and in;                         Ac welerum þǣr ūtgǣð and inǣð weler;
 There was no guessing his kith and kin:                     Man ne mihte ārædan his cyþþe and cynn:
 And nobody could enough admire                              And nān mihte  ġenōg wundrian
 The tall man and his quaint (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#quaint) attire (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#attire).                               Þone langan wer and his seldiċe claðas.
 Quoth (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#quoth) one: “It's as my great-grandsire,                     Cwæþ ān: “Hit is swā ġif mīn ǣrfæder,
 Starting up at the Trump of Doom's tone,                  Sturtende æt þæs Blǣdhornes Dōmes swēge,
 Had walked this way from his painted tombstone!''    Ġēong on þisse wise fram his ġefægdum byrgelsstāne!”
 
He advanced to the council-table:                              Hē,  forðēode tō þǣm ġield-borde:
 And, “Please your honours,'' said he, “I'm able,         And, “Weldōn ēow witan,” cwæþ hē, “iċ mæġ,
 By means of a secret charm, to draw                         Þurh diernum galdore, forðtēon
 All creatures living beneath the sun,                          Eallu deor libbendu beneoðan þǣre sunne,
 That creep or swim or fly or run                                 Þe creopaþ oþþe swimmaþ oþþe flēogaþ  oþþe iernaþ
After me so as you never saw!                                    Æfter mē swā swā ġē nǣfre sāwon!
 And I chiefly use my charm                                         And iċ mǣst nēote mines galdres
 On creatures that do people harm,                             For  dēorum þe dōþ dare mannum,
 The mole and toad and newt and viper (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#viper);                      Sēo wandeweorpe and tāde and efeta and nǣdre;
 And people call me the Pied Piper.''                             And menn mē hǣt se Fāga Pīpere.”
 (And here they noticed round his neck                       (And hēr hīe onfundon ymbe his healsa
 A scarf of red and yellow stripe,                                  Swēorclaþ stafodne rēadne and ġeolone,
 To match with his coat of the self-same cheque;        Efenlǣcan mid his cyrtele þæs selfan ilcan fāgan;
 And at the scarf's end hung a pipe;                            And pipe hēng æt þæs swēorclaþes ende;
 And his fingers, they noticed, were ever straying        And his fingras, hīe onfundon, ǣfre wandrodon
 As if impatient to be playing                                        Swā ġif unġeðyldiġ plegian
 Upon this pipe, as low it dangled                                Onuppan þisse pipe, swā niðere hēo āhēng
 Over his vesture (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vesture) so old-fangled (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#old-fangled).)                                Ofer his scrūd swā ǣrdagas.)
 “Yet,'' said he, “poor piper as I am,                            “Ġīēt,” hē cwæþ, “yfel pipere swā eom iċ,   
 In Tartary I freed the Cham,                                        in Tartary iċ ġefrēode þone Cham,
 Last June, from his huge swarms of gnats (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#gnats),                 Lætestum Ǣrran Līðan, fram his ūþmǣtum gnætgangum,
 I eased in Asia the Nizam                                            Iċ ālihtede in ēastlande þone Nizam
 Of a monstrous brood of vampyre-bats:                    Of unhīerum  brōde blōdsūcingra-hrēaðemūsa:
 And as for what your brain bewilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#bewilders),                         And for þe ġeondmengeþ þīn bræġen,
 If I can rid your town of rats                                       Ġif iċ mæġe ġeryddan ēowerne burgstede of rætum
 Will you give me a thousand guilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder)?''                       Ġīefaþ ġē mē ān þusend scillingas?”
 “One? fifty thousand!'' -- was the exclamation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#exclamation)           “Ān? Fīftiġ þusend!” – wæs sēo ġeċīġnes
 Of the astonished Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) and Corporation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#corporation).                 Of þǣm tōðunode Burgealdre and Ġielde.
 
 

Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on April 27, 2017, 06:22:41 PM
I have now finished translating verse seven. As the poem is getting rather long now I am only posting verse 7.
 
Into the street the Piper stept,                                     Se pīpere stōp on þǣre strǣte,   
 Smiling first a little smile,                                              Smearcode lytel ǣr,
 As if he knew what magic slept                                     Swā ġif hē wiste þe drȳcræft slēp
 In his quiet pipe the while;                                            In his swīgre pīpe þā hwīl;
 Then, like a musical adept,                                            Þā, swā ġefremed  drēamere,
 To blow the pipe his lips he wrinkled,                            Se pīpere tō blāwanne hē ġerifaþ his smæras,
 And green and blue his sharp eyes twinkled,                 And grēne and hǣwe his cēne ēagan twinclodon,
 Like a candle-flame where salt is sprinkled;                   Swā candele līġ þǣr sealt is ġebeġoten;
 And ere three shrill notes the pipe uttered,                   And ǣr ġesprǣc se pīpe þrīe scielle swēġas,
 You heard as if an army muttered;                                Man hīerde swā ġif prass hwǣstrode;
 And the muttering grew to a grumbling;                       And sēo hwǣstrung wōx tō þǣre ċeorung;
 And the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling;             And sēo ċeorung wōx tō mihtiġ hrēam;
 And out of the houses the rats came tumbling.            And of þǣm hūsum þā rætas cōmon fealletan.
 Great rats, small rats, lean rats, brawny (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#brawny) rats,                Micle rætas, lȳtle rætas, þynne rætas, grēate rætas,
 Brown rats, black rats, grey rats, tawny (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#tawny) rats,                Brūne rætas, blæce rætas, grǣġe rætas, fealwe rætas,
 Grave old plodders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#plodders), gay young friskers,                         Stæððiġa ealda slāwunga, gāle ġeonge spillere,
 Fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins,                               Fæder, mōdor, ēamas, swēoras,
 Cocking tails and pricking whiskers,                              Ūpfēġedon tæġlas and scufon byrsta,
 Families by tens and dozens,                                         Mǣgas be meniġe,
Brother, sisters, husbands, wives --                             Brōðor, sweostor, frīend --
 Followed the Piper for their lives.                                  Folgodon þone Pīpere for hiera līf.
 From street to street he piped advancing,                    Fram strǣte tō strǣte he pīpode stæpmǣlum,
 And step for step they followed dancing,                     And stæpmǣlum hīe folgodon hlēapende,
 Until they came to the river Weser                                Oð hīe cōmon tō þǣre ēae Weser
 Wherein all plunged and perished (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#perished)!                                Þǣrin eall adrencton and alæġon!
 -- Save one who, stout as Julius Caesar,                      --Būtan ānum þe, stīð swā Iulius Casere,
 Swam across and lived to carry                                   Swam ġeond and lifde tō beranne
 (As he, the manuscript he cherished)                         (Swā hē, þæt writ hē clypte)
 To Rat-land home his commentary (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#commentary):                            Tō Ræt-landes hāme his ġesæġen:
 Which was, “At the first shrill notes of the pipe,          Þe wæs, “Æt þā forma scielle swēġas þǣre pipe,
 I heard a sound as of scraping tripe,                           Iċ hīerde swēg swā sceafung ġesenes,
 And putting apples, wondrous ripe,                            And fætelsian æpplas, wrǣtliċe rīpe,
 Into a cider-press's gripe:                                          On æppelwīn-treddan gripe:
 And a moving away of pickle-tub-boards,                   And āstyran āweġ ecedfæt-bord,
 And a leaving ajar of conserve-cupboards,                  And ālǣtan hwōnlīċe unslȳped āsparodes metefætelsas,
 And a drawing the corks of train-oil-flasks,                 And ġeopenian ræwe elehorna,
 And a breaking the hoops of butter-casks:                 And brecan þā ymblytas  buteran- fætu:
 And it seemed as if a voice                                          And mē þūhte swā ġif stefn
 (Sweeter far than by harp or by psaltery (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#psaltery)                     (Swētra ðonne be hearpe oððe be saltere
 Is breathed) called out, ‘Oh rats, rejoice!                    Eðað) ċeallie ‘Lā rætas, blissiaþ!
 The world is grown to one vast drysaltery!                  Sēo woruld is grōwen weorðan ān ofermǣtliċe snǣdinghūs!
 So munch on, crunch on, take your nuncheon (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#nuncheon),          Swā þurhwuniaþ frettan, ābitan, habbaþ ēower nōnmete,
 Breakfast, supper, dinner, luncheon!’                          Morgenmete, æfenmete, dæġmete, middæġþēnung,
 And just as a bulky sugar-puncheon (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#puncheon),                         And efne swā edwistfull swēte līð,
 All ready staved (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#staved), like a great sun shone                      Eall ġeru ġebrocen, swā miċel sunne scān
 Glorious scarce an inch before me,                             Wuldorful efne ynce foran mē,
 Just as methought it said, ‘Come, bore me!’               Efne swā mē þūhte þe hit sæġde ‘Cum, mē borian!’
 -- I found the Weser rolling o'er me.''                          -- Iċ fand þe Weser wēolc ofer mē.”
 
 I don't know it puts a blank line in the middle but it will not let me clear it.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on May 12, 2017, 08:34:59 AM
Maybe verse 7 was a bit daunting so I think I might post the longer verses in two halves. Here is verse 8 which is much shorter.
 
You should have heard the Hamelin people                  Ġē hīerden þæt Hamelines folc
 Ringing the bells till they rocked the steeple                Hringan þā bellan oð hīe rocciaþ þone stīpel
 “Go,'' cried the Mayor, “and get long poles,                “Gāð” clipode se Burgealdor, “and  ġietaþ lange stengas,
 Poke out the nests and block up the holes!                 Pȳtaþ þā nest and fordyttaþ þā þyrlas!
 Consult with carpenters and builders,                         Þeahtigaþ mid trēowyrhtan and timbrendas,
 And leave in our town not even a trace                        And lǣfaþ in ūrum burg ne efen swaðe
 Of the rats!'' -- when suddenly, up the face                 Þara ræta!” – þonne fǣringa, uppe þæt nebb
 Of the Piper perked in the market-place,                      Pīperes āðiddede in þǣre ċeapstowe,
 With a, “First, if you please, my thousand guilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder)!''   Mid “Forma, ġif ēow līcaþ, mīn þūsend scillinga!”
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on May 27, 2017, 08:20:17 AM
I have now translated verse 9.
 
A thousand guilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder)! The Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) looked blue;              Þūsend scillinga! Se Burgealdor ġelīcode hǣwen;
 So did the Corporation (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#corporation) too.                                        Swā dyde þæt Ġield ēac.
 For council dinners made rare havoc                           For tūnrædes dæġmetas dōð selcūð līcung
 With Claret (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#claret), Moselle (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#moselle), Vin-de-Grave (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vin-de-grave), Hock (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#hock);                  Mid wīn of Bordeaux, Moselle and Hochhiem;
 And half the money would replenish                            And healf þæt feoh fylle
 Their cellar's biggest butt (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#butt) with Rhenish (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#rhenish).                      Hiera cleofan mǣstan tunnan mid wine Rīnes.
 To pay this sum to a wandering fellow                         Ġieldan þisne rim tō wǣþendum menn
 With a gipsy coat of red and yellow!                            Mid Eġiptiscum cyrtele rēades and ġeolwes!
 “Beside,'' quoth (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#quoth) the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) with a knowing wink,        “Eaca”, cwæþ se Burgealdor mid cnāwendre wincunge,
 “Our business was done at the river's brink;               “Ūre intinga wæs ġedōn æt þǣre ēas ecge;
 We saw with our eyes the vermin (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#vermin) sink,                        Wē sāwon mid ūrum ēagan þā fūl dēor besenċan,
 And what's dead can't come to life, I think.                And þætte sīe dead ne mihte cwician, iċ hycge.
 So, friend, we're not the folks to shrink                      Swā, frēond, wē ne sind folc scrincan
 From the duty of giving you something to drink,        Fram þǣre nīedscylde þē sellan āwiht drincan,
 And a matter of money to put in your poke (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#poke);               And intinga sceattes in þīnne pohhan settan;
 But as for the guilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder), what we spoke                       Ac swā þā scillingas, þe wē  spǣcon
 Of them, as you very well know, was in joke.              Þāra, swā þū cnawst ful wel , wæs gamende.
 Beside, our losses have made us thrifty (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#thrifty).                    Ēac, ūre lyras ūs dōþ bēon fercuþe.
 A thousand guilders (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#guilder)! Come, take fifty!''                      Þūsend scillinga! Witodliċe, fōh fīftiġ!”
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on May 30, 2017, 02:27:52 PM
Okay... here goes Mr Picky!

On lines three, ten and thirty-six of verse 7 ( and on lines sixteen and twenty-six of verse 6 now that I get my finger out) you have Swā ġif/ swā ġif and on line thirteen of verse 5 you appear to have swā ġif where the original has only as.  I’m under the impression that just swā is perfectly sufficient in Old English and I don’t recall seeing swā ġif in original Old English.  Do you have the advantage of me or was this just force of habit from the modern idiom?  I’m rather anxious about this as I thought I’d got it straight for my Dickens translation because this sort of thing definitely gets under my radar, believe me.

On line six of verse 8 wouldn’t in ūrum burg more likely be on ūrum burg but wouldn’t just ūrum burg do?

On line six of verse 9 you have menn.  Is this just a slip for mann?


But more important than any of that I’m enjoying this thank you, David.  Congratulations on Eġiptiscum cyrtele, that was really smart work.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to be identified as the sole survivor, because the Fen rat always finds a way, has been asserted.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on May 30, 2017, 03:58:31 PM
In verse 5 line 13 I translated “as” as “swā ġif” as it appeared to mean “as if” rather than “as”. With the other instances I just continued with “swā ġif”. My dictionary tells me that “swā” can mean “as if” among its many meanings. I just felt that “swā ġif” made it clearer. I have never seen “swā”, “swā ġif” or anything else to mean “as if”
 
I think that “in ūrum burge”, “on ūrum burge” or just “ūrum burge” are equally as good. I agree that “on” is probably the most common but I tend to use “in” for “in” and “on” for "on". The real error was omitting the “-e” in “burg” as it should be dative.
 
“Menn” is the dative singular of “mann”, but I do wonder whether that is the best word.
 
I’m glad you are enjoying this – I was wondering whether I was on my own. I’m pleased that you liked “Eġiptiscum cyrtele”.  There have been several problems like that and I wonder  how well I have dealt with them.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on May 30, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
For 'as if' could you not use 'swilce' (Bosworth & Toller s.v. swilce IV)?
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on May 31, 2017, 06:38:53 PM
Thank you for that, Linden. I seem to remember reading that hwilċ and swilċ came from hwā liċ and swā liċ with the “-e” added on to make it an adverb. This makes me lean more to swilċe than swā. However my preference would still be for swā ġif if the Anglo- Saxons actually said that.
 
I cannot remember seeing any of these for “as if” in Old English. However surely they must have said “as if” somewhere in the literature. Can anyone help us out?
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on June 02, 2017, 04:23:13 PM
There is no occurrence of 'swa gif' anywhere within the entire corpus of Old English poetry.  There are many occurrences of swilce/swylce with the meaning 'as if'.  I don't see why the Anglo-Saxons would need to use the clumsier 'swa gif' if they already had the word 'swilce' covering that meaning.  If you are really determined to use 'swa' then you can use it as an adverbial conjunction meaning 'as if' by using the subjunctive in the clause that follows it but not with 'gif' - the 'gif' sense is provided by the subjunctive.  See s.v. swa in Bosworth and Toller under V (3).
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on June 02, 2017, 05:28:30 PM
I still have not found “swilce” meaning “as if” but poetry is not my thing. It looks as though I should switch  to “swilce”.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on June 02, 2017, 05:57:52 PM
Try the  very first line of Wulf and Eadwacer  ' leodum is minum swylce him mon lac gife' - to my people it is as if someone gives them a gift.

Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on June 02, 2017, 09:28:28 PM
Well done Linden! Does “swilċe” always take the subjunctive when meaning “as if” – a speculative idea?
 
I find this poem completely opaque and I cannot make sense of many of the lines. This line is fairly straight forward apart from the crazy word order and omitting the subject and preposition which is not uncommon in poetry. I think that the natural word order would be
“Mīnum lēodum is swylċe ġife mon him lāc”. I might translate it as “Among my people this is as though someone gives them a gift.”


However, I think that your translation is as good as any. It all depends on how it continues. Given the next line maybe it should be
"To my people it is as if he is given as to them as a gift".
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Linden on June 03, 2017, 11:21:49 AM
............. Does “swilċe” always take the subjunctive when meaning “as if” – a speculative idea?
 ............................................................................
That is what I have already stated - if you use 'swilce' with a subsequent clause in the subjunctive then the 'swilce' takes the value of 'as' or 'like' and the use of the subjunctive gives the 'if'.

This 'as if' usage of 'swilce' is clearly stated in the Bosworth and Toller dictionary which is available on-line at this link.

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0956.html

 Just look at the entry on this page for 'swilce' on page 956 under the sub-entries generally labelled IV for examples.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on June 10, 2017, 08:38:25 AM
 
The responses to the last post was encouraging and I learned about “as if”. Verses 10 and 11 were quite short so I have put them together.


The Piper's face fell, and he cried.                                Þæs pīperes andwlita fēoll, and hē clipode.
 “No trifling (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#trifling)! I can't wait, beside!                                  Ne strӯndaþ tīman! Iċ ne mæġ bīdan, ēac!
 I've promised to visit by dinner-time                           Iċ behēot Bagdad be swǣsendum nēosan
 Baghdad (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#baghdad), and accept the prime                                   And þicge ærgōd
 Of the Head-Cook's pottage (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#pottage), all he's rich in,                Ealdorcōces syflinge, in ealle þe hē is weliġ,
 For having left, in the Caliph (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#caliph)'s kitchen,                        For ālǣtan, in Caliphes cyċenan,
 Of a nest of scorpions no survivor:                             Of neste tæglstingena nān  belīfend:
 With him I proved no bargain-driver,                           Mid him iċ āfandode ānstæc bēon,
 With you, don't think I'll bate (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#bate) a stiver (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#stiver)!                         Mid ēow, ne þenċaþ þe oftēo pening!
And folks who put me in a passion                              And folc þe mē ġebylge
 May find me pipe after another fashion.''                    Finden þe iċ pīpie oðerre wīsan folgian.”
 
 “How?” cried the Mayor, “d’ye think I brook              “Humeta?” clipode se Burgealdor, “hyġst þū þe iċ þafie
Being worse treated than a Cook?                              Drēogende wiersa þonne Cōc?
Insulted by a lazy ribald                                              Bismerode of īdelgeornum  ungeþwǣrum menn
With idle pipe and vesture piebald?                             Mid īdlum pīpan and fāgan ġescierplan? 
You threaten us, fellow? Do your worst,                     Þū  ūs þeowracast, fēolaga? Dēst þīnre wyrst,
Blow your pipe till you burst!”                                    Pīpa þīnre pipe oþ þū birst!”
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on June 24, 2017, 05:51:40 PM
There were some difficult bits to translate in the last two verses and they are probably even greater in this one. Do let me know if you have suggestions.
 
Once more he stept into the street,                                  Eft onġean hē stop on þā strǣt,
 And to his lips again                                                        And tō his smǣrum eft
 Laid his long pipe of smooth straight cane;                     Læġde his langre pīpan smeðre rihtre hrēodgirde;
 And ere he blew three notes (such sweet                        And ǣr hē blēow þrīe swēġas (þylc myrge
 Soft notes as yet musician's cunning (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#cunning)                              Smyltliċ swēġas swā ġīet dreamers liste
 Never gave the enraptured (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#enraptured) air)                                        Nǣfre ġēafon þā glædan lyfte)
 There was a rustling that seemed like a bustling              Hristlung wæs þe wæs swā brastlung,
 Of merry crowds justling at pitching and hustling,          Of blīðum þrēatum scūfaþ ġewilcþ and sweng,
 Small feet were pattering, wooden shoes clattering,       Lӯtle fēt intrepettedon, trēowen scōs hrisodan,
 Little hands clapping and little tongues chattering,         Lӯtla handa plegedon and lӯtla tungan writodon,
 And, like fowls in a farm-yard when barley is scattering, And, swā fugolas in feormehāmes ġeard þonne bēow is āstencende
 Out came the children running.                                       Þā bearn ūtfōron ieran.
 All the little boys and girls,                                              Eall þā lӯtlan cnapan and mæġdu,
 With rosy cheeks and flaxen curls,                                  Mid rōsenum  hlēorum and fealum locum,
 And sparkling eyes and teeth like pearls,                         And ræscettungum ēaġum and meregreotlicum tōþum,
 Tripping and skipping, ran merrily after                           Intrepettedon and hlēopon, urnon blīðelīċe
 The wonderful music with shouting and laughter.           Þǣm wunderfulum sōncræfte mid ċeallunge and hleahtore.
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on July 09, 2017, 09:19:28 AM
The next verse is long so this is half of it and I’ll post the other half later.
 
The Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) was dumb, and the Council (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#council) stood               Se Burgealdor wæs dumb, and þæt Ġield stōd
 As if they were changed into blocks of wood,              Swiċe forscōpen hīe in onhwēawas,
 Unable to move a step, or cry                                    Ne magon āstyrian stæpe, oððe ċirmað
 To the children merrily skipping by,                            Tō þǣm bearnum blīðelīċe hlēopon be him,
 And could only follow with the eye                             And magon ænlīċe æfterfylgan mid þǣm ēagan
 That joyous crowd at the Piper's back.                        Þǣm blīðum þrēatum æt þæs Pīperes bæce.
 But how the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) was on the rack,                           Ac hū wæs se Burgealdor on þǣre hengen,
 And the wretched (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#wretched) Council (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#council)'s bosoms beat,                    And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,
 As the Piper turned from the High Street                     Swā ċierde se Pīpere fram þǣm Hēahweġe
 To where the Weser roll’d its waters                            Tō þǣr wealwode sēoWeser hiere wæter
 Right in the way of their sons and daughters!              Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra!
 However he turned from South to West,                      Swāðēah ċierde hē fram Sūðum tō Westum,
 And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed,                And tō Koppelberg Hyll his stæpas mynodon,
 And after him the children pressed;                              And æfter him þā bearn þrungon;
 Great was the joy in every breast.                                Miċel wæs sēo blīðnes in ǣlcum bōsme.
 “He never can cross that mighty top!                           Hē nǣfre mæġ oferfēran þone mihtiġne cnæp!
 He's forced to let the piping drop,                                Hit hine ġenӯt hwistlung oflinnan,
 And we shall see our children stop!''                           And wē scēawiaþ ūre bearn healtian!”
 When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side,             Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan,
 A wondrous
portal (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#portal) opened wide,                                Wrǣtlīċ port ġerӯmþ wide,
 As if a
cavern (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#cavern) was suddenly hollowed;                       Swilċe wæs samnunga hol āholod;
 And the Piper advanced and the children followed,   And se Pīpere forþstōp and þā bearn f
olgodon,
 And when all were in to the very last,                        And þā wǣron eall innan tō þǣre endelāfe,
 The door in the mountain-side shut fast.                    Sēo duru in þǣm muntes sidan betӯnde fæste.
 
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on July 23, 2017, 09:58:12 AM
This is the whole verse of the one I tried to post last time.
 
The Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) was dumb, and the Council (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#council) stood                Se Burgealdor wæs dumb, and þæt Ġield stōd
 As if they were changed into blocks of wood,               Swiċe forscōpen hīe in onhwēawas,
 Unable to move a step, or cry                                     Ne magon āstyrian stæpe, oððe ċirmað
 To the children merrily skipping by,                             Tō þǣm bearnum blīðelīċe hlēopon be him,
 And could only follow with the eye                              And magon ænlīċe æfterfylgan mid þǣm ēagan
 That joyous crowd at the Piper's back.                        Þǣm blīðum þrēatum æt þæs Pīperes bæce.
 But how the Mayor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#mayor) was on the rack,                           Ac hū wæs se Burgealdor on þǣre hengen,
 And the wretched (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#wretched) Council (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#council)'s bosoms beat,                    And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,
 As the Piper turned from the High Street                    Swā ċierde se Pīpere fram þǣm Hēahweġe
 To where the Weser roll’d its waters                           Tō þǣr wealwode sēoWeser hiere wæter
 Right in the way of their sons and daughters!             Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra!
 However he turned from South to West,                     Swāðēah ċierde hē fram Sūðum tō Westum,
And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed,                 And tō Koppelberg Hyll his stæpas mynodon,
 And after him the children pressed;                            And æfter him þā bearn þrungon;
 Great was the joy in every breast.                              Miċel wæs sēo blīðnes in ǣlcum bōsme.
 “He never can cross that mighty top!                          Hē nǣfre mæġ oferfēran þone mihtiġne cnæp!
 He's forced to let the piping drop,                               Hit hine ġenӯt hwistlung oflinnan,
 And we shall see our children stop!''                           And wē scēawiaþ ūre bearn healtian!”
 When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side,             Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan,
 A wondrous portal (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#portal) opened wide,                                Wrǣtlīċ port ġerӯmþ wide,
 As if a cavern (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#cavern) was suddenly hollowed;                        Swilċe wæs samnunga hol āholod;
 And the Piper advanced and the children followed,      And se Pīpere forþstōp and þā bearn folgodon,
 And when all were in to the very last,                        And þā wǣron eall innan tō þǣre endelāfe,
 The door in the mountain-side shut fast.                    Sēo duru in þǣm muntes sidan betӯnde fæste.
 Did I say, all? No! One was lame,                              Sæġde iċ, eall? Nese! Ān wæs lama,
 And could not dance the whole of the way;                And ne meahte þæt ful fær intrepettan;
 And in after years, if you would blame                       And in æfterrum ġēarum, ġif man leahtrode
 His sadness, he was used to say, --                           His sāriġnes, hē cwæðe, --
 “It's dull in our town since my playmates left!            Ūre burg is unglæd siððan mine plegmæccas sīðode!
 I can't forget that I'm bereft (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#bereft)                                     Iċ ne mæġ forġietan þe iċ eom lēas   
Of all the pleasant sights they see,                            Ealla wynsuma ġesiht þe hīe sēoþ,
 Which the Piper also promised me.                           Þe se Pīpere ēac mē behēt.
 For he led us, he said, to a joyous land,                    Forþӯ lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ, tō lustbǣrum lande,
 Joining the town and just at hand,                            Ġeðēodan þone burg and þǣr æt hande,
 Where waters gushed and fruit-trees grew,               Þǣr wæter guton and æppleltrēow wēoxon.
 And flowers put forth a fairer hue,                            And blōstman forðdydon fægerre hīw,
 And everything was strange and new;                      And ǣlcuht wæs elelendisc and nīwe;
 The sparrows were brighter than peacocks here,       Þā spearwan wǣron beorhtran þonne pawan hēr,
 And their dogs outran our fallow deer,                      And hiera hundas forurnon ūre hēorotas,
 And honey-bees had lost their stings,                       And hunig-bēon forluson hiera stingas;
 And horses were born with eagles' wings;                 And hors wæcnede mid earna fiðru;
 And just as I became assured                                  And swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed
 My lame foot would be speedily cured,                      Þe mīn healt fōt bēo hwætlīċe ġebēted,
 The music stopped and I stood still,                          Se sōncræft endede and iċ ġestedigod,
 And found myself outside the hill,                             And onfand þe iċ wæs wiðūtan  þǣm hylle,
 Left alone against my will,                                       Lǣten ān unþances,
 To go now limping as before,                                    Fēran nū hinciende swā ǣr,
 And never hear of that country more!''                      And nǣfre hieran mā be þǣm lande!”
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on August 05, 2017, 09:01:12 AM
Verse 14 is another long one so here is the first half.
 
Alas, alas for Hamelin!                                           Ēala, wā for Hameline!
 There came into many a burgher (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#burgher)'s pate                   Incōm on manig burgfolces heafod
 A text which says that heaven's gate                      Traht þe sæġþ þe heofones ġeat
 Opes to the rich at as easy rate                              Onhlīde for weliġa manna æt seftre mǣðe
 As the needle's eye takes a camel in!                      Swā nǣdle ēaġe āfēhð olfend!
 The mayor sent East, West, North and South,         Se Burgealdor sende Ēast , West, Norð and Sūð,
 To offer the Piper, by word of mouth.                     Þone Pīpere tō bewæġnanne, be worde mūðes.
 Wherever it was men's lot to find him,                   Swā hwǣr swā hit wæs mannes ġifeðe him findan,
 Silver and gold to his heart's content,                    Seolfer and gold oð his heortan fulhealdenre,
 If he'd only return the way he went,                      Ġif hē anā æthweorfe þæt fær þe hē ēode,
 And bring the children behind him.                        And brincð bearn æthindan him.
 But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavour (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#endeavour),            Ac þā hīe onġeaton þe sēo hīgung forlēas,
 And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,             And se Pīpere and hopperas ā ēodon,
 They made a decree (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#decree) that lawyers never                 Hīe dōþ bebod þe lahwitan nǣfre
 Should think their records dated duly                    Scolde hycgan cranicas habban wǣr datārum
 If, after the day of the month and year,                 Ġif, æfter þǣm dæġe mōnaþ and ġēares,
 These words did not as well appear,                      Þās word ne onӯwedon efenwel,
 “And so long after what happened here                “And swā lange siððan þe ġelamp hēr
 On the Twenty-second of July,                              On Æterra Līða twēġen and twentiġ,
 Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''                       þrēotiene hundred and siex and hundseofontiġ”
 And the better in memory to fix                            And is betera fæstnian in ġemynd
 The place of the children's last retreat,                  Þone stede þara bearna endemestan smygeles,
 
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on August 17, 2017, 09:02:23 AM
Here is the whole of verse 14
 
Alas, alas for Hamelin!                                           Ēala, wā for Hameline!
 There came into many a burgher (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#burgher)'s pate                   Incōm on manig burgfolces heafod
 A text which says that heaven's gate                       Traht þe sæġþ þe heofones ġeat
 Opes to the rich at as easy rate                              Onhlīde for weliġa manna æt seftre mǣðe
 As the needle's eye takes a camel in!                      Swā nǣdle ēaġe āfēhð olfend!
 The mayor sent East, West, North and South,          Se Burgealdor sende Ēast , West, Norð and Sūð,
 To offer the Piper, by word of mouth.                      Þone Pīpere tō bewæġnanne, be worde mūðes.
 Wherever it was men's lot to find him,                    Swā hwǣr swā hit wæs mannes ġifeðe him findan,
 Silver and gold to his heart's content,                    Seolfer and gold oð his heortan fulhealdenre,
 If he'd only return the way he went,                      Ġif hē anā æthweorfe þæt fær þe hē ēode,
 And bring the children behind him.                        And brincð bearn æthindan him.
 But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavour (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#endeavour),            Ac þā hīe onġeaton þe sēo hīgung forlēas,
 And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,             And se Pīpere and hopperas ā ēodon,
 They made a decree (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#decree) that lawyers never                 Hīe dōþ bebod þe lahwitan nǣfre
 Should think their records dated duly                    Scolde hycgan cranicas habban wǣr datārum
 If, after the day of the month and year,                 Ġif, æfter þǣm dæġe mōnaþ and ġēares,
 These words did not as well appear,                      Þās word ne onӯwedon efenwel,
 “And so long after what happened here                 “And swā lange siððan þe ġelamp hēr
 On the Twenty-second of July,                              On Æterra Līða twēġen and twentiġ,
 Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''                      þrēotiene hundred and siex and hundseofontiġ”
 And the better in memory to fix                           And is betera fæstnian in ġemynd
 The place of the children's last retreat,                 Þone stede þara bearna endemestan smygeles,
 They called it, the Pied Piper's Street --                Hīe hēhton hine, þæs Fāgan Pīperes Strǣt --
 Where any one playing on pipe or tabor (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#tabor),               Þær ġehwā þe plegaþ pīpan oððe tunnebotm,             
 Was sure for the future to lose his labour.             Bēo ġewiss for þǣre forþġesceafte forlēossan his wyrcunge.
 Nor suffered they hostelry or tavern                     Ne man hīe ġesiehþ mid inne ne wīnhūse
 To shock with mirth a street so solemn;                Tawian mid myrgðe strǣt swā dēopum;
 But opposite the place of the cavern (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#cavern)                     Ac wiþ þǣm stede þæs holes
 They wrote the story on a column,                       Hīe grafaþ þæt spell on columnan,
 And on the great church-window painted              And mētton on þǣre miclan ċirican ēaġþӯrle.
 The same, to make the world acquainted (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#acquainted)              Ilca, cӯðan tō worulde
 How their children were stolen away,                    Hū wǣron bestolen hīera bearn,
 And there it stands to this very day.                     And hē stant oð þisne  dæġ
 And I must not omit to say                                  And iċ ne sceal oferhebban cweðan
 That in Transylvania (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#transylvania) there's a tribe                       Þe in Transyvania is ġeþēode
 Of alien people who ascribe (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#ascribe)                                 Elelendisces folces þe cnōdeþ
 The outlandish (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#outlandish) ways and dress.                            Þā ūtlendiscan wīsan and wǣda.
 On which their neighbours lay such stress,            Þe on hiera nēahġebūras lecgaþ þylc weorþ,
 To their fathers and mothers having risen             Tō hiera fædrum and mōdrum hæfen ġeastigen
 Out of some subterraneous (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#subterraneous) prison                        Of sum under foldan cwearterne
 Into which they were trepanned (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#trepanned)                           Þe in hīe wǣron ġetrept
 Long time ago in a mighty band                           Ġefyrn on mægenfolce
 Out of Hamelin town in Brunswick land,                Of Hamelin burge in EaldSeaxlande,
 But how or why, they don't understand.                Ac hū oððe forhwon, hīe ne onġiett.
 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: Bowerthane on August 21, 2017, 03:29:01 PM

I hope you know how much I enjoy and appreciate this, David.


Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra! I’m not getting at in þǣm weġe but I wonder whether you think wiþ weġe would be more characteristic of the Old English?

Forþӯ lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ.  Surely that should be: Forþӯ ūs lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ?


Se sōncræft endede and iċ ġestedigod,  Have you come across ætstandan for ‘stood still’ ( as well as ‘halt’)?  I find it more economical.  That Black Rider ætstód in Woody End, as Frodo ætstód upon Cerin Amroþ, in my translations from The Lord of the Rings.  Also, if you are as picky as I about sticking to the wordsmith’s choice of expression if at all possible, but stoppan does exist as a verb, seemingly.


Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan.  Ah, can you actually use swá in this ‘temporal’ sense ( as I’ve developed the habit of calling it) in Old English?  As you may have begun to suspect, swá has given me a lot of trouble.  Trouble that began many years ago when I jauntily set about translating Waltzing Matilda into Old English only to convince myself that the line, “And he sang as he sat as he waited while his billy boiled” had to go, if memory serves And hé sang þá hwíle þe hé sæt þá hwíle þe hé bát þá hwíle þe his bili séaþ

Which you could say kills the hit.   

Yet I am aware only of certain uses of hwíle on its own ( declined thus, as an adverb) as an alternative to modern-day ‘temporal as’.  One that may actually be appropriate as Þā, lā, hwìle ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sedan as I’ve used it like this twice in my excerpts from The Lord of the Rings but which are not yet fit to be seen, otherwise. 

Otherwise this was why the line: “Do you like what you doth see...?” said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within” had to be “Lícaþ þé hwæt þú siehst...?” sæġde þæt  forspennende ælf-mæġden þá hwíle þe héo fræfele ġetwǽmde þá fyldas hiere pælle tó onhlídanne þá æppledu wuldrum and heolstrig innan and why “Her tiny, pink toes caressed the luxuriant fur of his instep while Frito’s nose sought the warmth of her precious elf-navel” had to be Hiere minan tán and rósġan óleccede þæt  ġeþúfede flíes him fótwelme þá hwíle þe Fritos nosu sóhte þá wearmnesse hiere deórwyrþum ælf-nafelan in my naughty, but hopefully nice attempt upon the Alfred Prize.

So I’d love to be wrong here.  Yet having re-checked and pored through textbooks, samples etc. looking for exemplars and anything else that seems relevant on at least three separate occasions, I fear I am not.  Can Linden shed any light on this, I wonder?

Incidentally, I have reminded myself that you can have ‘so that’ in much the same instrumental sense as in  Modern English, as in hé wæs swìþe fæger swá þæt hé wæs ġeháten Leohtberend.

Oh, and there’s an Old English idiom nú hwíle which covers much the same semantic ground as our ‘just now’ or ‘at the moment’.  Can’t remember where I found it nú hwíle, but I did make sure about it because then, as , I don’t mind getting chuffed as hell at fitting nú hwíle into the crisis moment in my translation of the Sucker Punch script. 

The film reaches its climax when at last the villain, Blue Jones, foils the heroine, Babydoll’s escape attempt.  Babydoll tries to resist as Blue begins to assault her physically, ready to do so sexually.  “Huh, is that it?  Is that all you got? Come here!  Come out,” Blue demands as he slaps Babydoll about. “Did you lose your fight, huh?”  Yet Babydoll clings to enough nerve to fumble for her hidden knife, breathing, “No. I just found it...” before she stabs Blue. 

So now it goes:

   [ Súcelíca séceþ feohtan]
Blue: Éa, is þæt hit?  Wes eall þé hafa swá?  Cume hér!  Cume forþ.  Losedest þú þín feoht? He?
Babydoll:  Ná.  Iċ nú hwíle  fand hit. 
   [ Héo sticaþ Hǽwe]
   

Þǣr wæter guton and æppleltrēow  wēoxon.  There’s a second excrescent L in that æppleltrēow but I can suggest wæstmtréow for ‘fruit-trees’ if you don’t mind getting creative.  I’m not aware of a *wæstmtréow in original Old English, but wæstm is definitely used in appropriate senses. 

Amongst others.  It’s a surprisingly versatile word, I find.


And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,.  Eek, I looked into this too.  So far as I can tell the Old English verb béatan meant little more than physically ‘beat; clash together; tramp, tread on’ as with hammers, cymbals, feet etc.  I could find no instance of it referring to anything like a heartbeat in our period.  I’ve come across other senses that modern ‘beat’ doesn’t fit too, such as a musical beat, but I had to sort this one out for the last line of the third verse that Tom Bombadil breaks out into, in the chapter In the House of Tom Bombadil.  Referring to Goldberry, he chants “Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!”  At the moment I have this as Swéte wæs  hiere  sang þá,  and hiere heorte  wæs slecgettende! because sléan, believe it or not, the word that put the ‘sledge-’ into ‘sledgehammer’, does seem to bear the requisite shade of meaning.

Incidentally, I’ve found that the Old English word for ‘barrow’, beorg is not definitive enough to be sure to hit the meaning ‘grave mound’ actually in Old English.  In my rendition of In the House of Tom Bombadil, where it says of the four hobbits “They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills” etc, it has to be Híe híerdon  ymb  þǽm Micel Morþcrundlas, and þǽm gréne hlæwum, and þá stánhringas  ofer  þǽre dúnum etc. and, near the top of the next paragraph, “Even in the Shire the rumour of the Barrow-wights of the Barrow-downs beyond the Forest had been heard” is taking shape as Efne on þǽre Scíre se hlísa þǽm  Morþcrundel-wihtum þǽm  Morþcrundel-dúnum beġeondan þǽm Wealda ǽrlice wæs ġehierede for fear I could just be talking to myself about the hill-things of the Hill-hills, if not.

Better answers on a méting-ġewrit by all means, because that’s from my Sucker Punch translation, where Sweet Pea says, “Well, send me a postcard from paradise” or Wel, send mé of Folcwange  méting-ġewrit.


hē cwæðe.  Why not hē wolde cweðan for “he was used to say”?  Wasn’t wolde commonly used to express habitual action?  If I were a suspicious person, David, I’d think you planted that one to keep us on our toes!


And swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed. Unless Linden knows better, I think you can have And efne swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed to hit the same note as modern ‘just as’, here.


Iċ ne mæġ forġietan þe.  I wonder what your ( or anyone’s) opinion was of using the subjunctive in the negative for constructions such as this?  Say Nǽfre forġiete iċ þe etc.?  I feel it’s subtly more elegant, looks more Old Englishy and, when translating modern ‘can’t’ into Old English, allows for the fact that many users of Modern English don’t know or don’t care about the difference between ‘cannot’ and ‘may not’, or commonly mean one by the other.

But that’s just how I feel about it...






___________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to identify Wing Commander Guy Gibson’s dog as Nigger has been asserted.

 
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on August 22, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
Bowerthane, I was thinking that there was not much interest.
 
Yes I missed ūs out. I was wondering whether it should come before lædede of after hē.
 
Ætstandan is fine. I was thinking of becoming still rather than being still. I have not seen stoppan but I think that stoppian is transitive, meaning to plug.
 
I think that you might be right about swā, þā hwīle þe is right but it would be nice if we could get away with just hwīle.


For your (heart) beat could you use clæppan, cloccettan or slecgettan.
 
I do not like using wolde for would. It feels 11th century. For me would triggers the subjunctive.
 
For “just as” you can have swā or efne swā.
 
For “can’t forget” you seem to be interpreting as a choice whereas I didn’t.
Title: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
Post by: David on September 02, 2017, 08:43:04 AM
Finally we finish up with the last short verse.
 
 
So, Willy, let me and you be wipers                                 Swā, Willy, uton wīpian
Of scores out with all men -- especially pipers!                Of borgum mid eallum mannum –mæst pīperum!
And, whether they pipe us free from rats or from mice,    And, hwæþer hīe pīpiaþ ūs hreddan wið ræta and mūsum
If we've promised them aught (http://www.lancsngfl.ac.uk/curriculum/literacy/lit_site/html/fiction/Pied_Piper/pages/glossary.htm#aught), let us keep our promise!   Ġif wē him behēoton aht, uton healdan ūre ġehāt!