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Author Topic: Carols  (Read 45756 times)

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2016, 12:27:24 PM »

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Are you thinking of "I believe in father Christmas" by Greg Lake?
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Great scot, Osgyth you’re right, that’s ;D the one! Thank you. :-*

It says here Greg Lake was hacked off by the commercialization of Christmas too, so I even like the sentiment.  And I’m one of those Benighted Heathens doomed to Eternal Damnation in the Nether Darkness to boot.  God knows – pun-pun-pun? – how Christians feel about it.   

I’m sorely tempted to break my vow to stop finding things to translate and do this one, myself.  Or was your heart set on it, David? 

What if Osgyth tosses a coin: heads me, tails you?

***



One little niggle: is it just me who finds it hard to be sure quite what the line “God rest ye merry gentlemen” means?  Who thinks I’m right to guess that the “rest” is what the singers are wishing upon the merry gentlemen? Viz there’s an implied subjunctive “May God rest ye...” and nobody is bidding God to rest, or anything else?

I’m guessing that “God rest ye” is some set greeting or salutation from yesteryear, wishing somebody peace of mind generally, surviving now only in this lyric.

***


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the Anglian Dauid. Is there a West Saxon spelling such as Dafid and also is there a West Saxon spelling for Iesus (Jesus) such as Ġesus?
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Ah yes, isn’t as simple as one would expect is it?  Yet here at hand I do have a copy, but not a facsimile, of Abbot Ælfric’s Heptateuch edited by S. J. Crawford for the Early English Text Society in 1922, amongst other exemplars.  Chapter three of the former begins Seo þridde yld wæs ða wuniende oð Dauid, þone mæran cyning Abrahames cynnes. Yet later it’s Iesse wæs DAVIDES fæder and the flourish with Davides is Ælfric’s and/ or the copyist’s, so maybe the V is on the original.  I notice Ælfric also has NAVM, likewise in a bold flourish, for the prophet Nahum.  Then later there’s one David, Iessan sunu but against those there’s fram Dauide oð Daniele þam witegan. Dauid is gecweden fortis manum, followed by another Dauid
   Also, in a Mercian hymn in Henry Sweet’s Old English Reader, there’s in húse Dáviðes cnehtes his and a Kentish psalm that opens with Dávid wæs háten, diormód hæleð, spelt twice more the same way but once as Dáuid
   So even if the V isn’t merely a transcription error ( or another spellchecker on its merry little quest for chaos) I’m guessing it’s still a U written the old-fashioned way and not a modern V, if only because Ælfric spells ‘Africa’, Affrica.       

The good news, I suppose, is that from a historical point of view you are within your rights to spell ‘David’ with a V in Old English, silently letting laymen use the modern pronunciation and experts worry about the historical one.  It looks as if the Old English pronounced Dauid as a diphthong, doesn’t it?

Ælfric spells ‘Jesus’ as Iesus, once for the Jesus ( “Iesus” wæs gehaten ure Hælend on life”) and once for Jesus ben Sirach ( ac Iesus hi gesette, Siraces sunu). Yet elsewhere I’ve definitely seen Ihesus, but I’ve never seen *Ġesus.  Once Ælfric uses Iesu in a Latin quote, which can be used for effect as Kate Bush did in the line “They read me Gurdjieff and Jesu” in Them Heavy People.

Also I note that Ælfric spells ‘Jerusalem’ as Hierusalem four times and no other way, and the excerpt from King Alfred’s Curia Pastoralis in Sweet’s Reader has Hierusalém seven times.  Maybe this is what the Franks Casket is trying to say, though as I read the runes it’s either Hierusllum or Hierucclum or something else. 

‘Bethlehem’ Ælfric spells as Bethleem on its lone appearance. Yet cross checking with his homily on the Nativity of the Innocents also in Sweet’s Reader, there’s on þǽre Iúdéiscan Bethleém and others, all consistently Bethleém.  I’ve come across these double vowels with a macron over the second one in proper nouns of Hebrew origin ( Isaác for instance) before, so I’m presuming the editors put them there to represent something real.  I suspect the Old English didn’t know the difference between Hebrew’s consonantal Alef ( a kinda glottal stop without the glottal), Hebrew , a plain H, and Heth which is like the CH in Scottish ‘loch’, German ‘mochte’ or the H in the Hebrew name, Nahum.

‘Mary’ is Marian three times and no other way. Yet I note that all three are dative formations: feower bec kyþað hu Crist com to mannum of Marian ðam mædene and þe he of Marian genam and gecynde of Marian innoðe. So it might be worth cross checking, just to be on the safe side ( though ‘Eve’ is once Evan in the nominative for some reason, since Hebrew ‘Eve’ has no -n, it’s Hevva – then Ælfric spells it Eue as well).  His homily to John the Baptist, which I also have in Sweet’s Reader, also has ǽr hé ácenned wæs of Marían and his one on the Nativity of the Innocents has mid Marían his méder so I suppose that form, whatever it is, ought to take a macron over the I.

‘Joseph’ Ælfric spells as Ioseph twice and no other way in the Heptateuch.  In his Nativity of the Innocents, however, there is a Iósepe three times and a Ióseph once.

In the same homily ‘Nazareth’ is spelt Nazaréth. Yes with the TH, not thorn or eth. God cnǽwþ.

I’m guessing ‘Herod’ is Herodes as this appears twice  ( 7 Herodes acwealde ealle þa litlan cild* and þæt wæs Herodes cining 7 Pilatus ealdormann), and several times as Herodes in those homilies of his, so it doesn’t seem to be a genitive form and -e alone was a feminine declension in the singular when I last thought I understood it.  I notice that John the Baptist and John the Apostle are both Iohannes and Ælfric’s homilies spell it Ióhannes many times quite consistently. 
   Just to be awkward, however, there’s a cyninge Herode and a his fæder Herode in the Nativity of the Innocents.

‘Christ’ is consistently Crist in dozens of places including the compounds Antecrist and cristendom.  With equal consistency, all my other exemplars spell it Críst and an excerpt from King Alfred’s translation of Orosius in Sweet’s Reader has crístendóm, and Wulfstan’s address to the English has ǽr antecrístes tócyme.

With some relief  I also note there’s a þæt Israhela folc, which I’ve cross checked with ond eall þá heargas Israhéla folces wǽron átíefrede on þǽm wáge from the Curia Pastoralis, and a tó Israhéla-land in Ælfric’s homily on the Nativity of the Innocents as well as an on Israhéla þéode. This latter I also had from another Old Testament extract I’ve forgotten about but definitely made sure of, hence the diacritics. Yet I’ve also found an and eft be útgonge Israéla folces of Ǽgypta londe, without the H, in Bede’s EH a Gebledsad Dryhten God Israél in a Mercian hymn ( this Sweet doesn’t dot the Gs), then a þe féowertig géara áfedde Israhéla folc on wéstene, with the H, in Ælfric’s homily on John the Apostle.
   So it’s not just on Iúdéa lande and Ebreos all the time ( elsewhere I nailed an Israhéla god for “god of Israel” too).


So.  That’s that cleared up.



* This sentence begins Ða comon þri ciningas to Criste mid lacum of eastrice feorran, if that’s any use, now.





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The moral right of the author to be identified by stylistic aberrations in the Codex Amiatinus  has been asserted.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 02:12:52 PM by Bowerthane »

Phyllis

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Re: Carols
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2016, 06:26:47 PM »
I was told that the phrase was "God rest ye merry, gentlemen" as I wish you to be merry through the grace of God...

Don't know if it's true...
Phyllis

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2016, 09:39:42 AM »



The title of this carol was a nightmare. Firstly what is the role of God in this sentence. I decided that whatever it was it should go into the nominative case. Next which were rest are we talking about. I decided that it was the one from the French rester, not the one from the old English restan. Then ye is an antiquated you in the nominative case whereas I was thinking about putting it in the accusative. Finally should merry gentlemen be in the accusative or nominative, fortunately these appear same.
Finally I was torn between God Lǣte Ēow Blīðe Burhmenn Wunian and God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Blīðe Burhmenn.
Maybe Bowerthane or Osgyth can sort this out. Otherwise I am reluctant to include this in my 12 carols for Christmas so I am considering a replacement at 13.
 
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen                                               God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Blīðe Burhmenn

God rest ye merry Gentlemen                                                 God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ blīðe burhmenn
Let nothing you dismay                                                          Ne lǣtaþ nāht swearcaþ ēow
Remember Christ our Saviour                                                Ġemunaþ Crist ūre Hǣlend
Was born on Christmas day                                                   Wōc on Cristesmæssan dæġe
To save us all from Satan’s power                                          Ūs eall fram Satanes ġewealde tō nerianne
When we were gone astray.                                                    Ðonne wē wandrodon.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
I hope to give the rest of the translation next week end.
My aim is to translate for following 12 carols for the booklet.
1.      Silent Night
2.      O Holy Night
3.      Hark the Herald Angels Sing
4.      In the Bleak Mid Winter
5.      God Rest You Merry Gentlemen
6.      O Come All You Faithful
7.      Once in Royal David’s City
8.      Away in a Manger
9.      Joy to the World
10.  O come, o come Emmanuel
11.  It Came Upon a Midnight Clear
12.  The Holly and the Ivy
13.  O Little Town of Bethlehem
I am very happy for anyone to join in translating other carols or Christmas songs.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:42:38 AM by David »

Osgyth

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Re: Carols
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2016, 10:22:20 AM »
I started typing this before David's translation popped up, so excuse the fact it overlaps somewhat.

Well looking at the wiki entry for "God rest ye merry gentlemen" it says that "rest" is a 16th/17th century way of saying "keep/remain as", and "merry" meant "prosperous/pleasant".  So I'm thinking the line means "God keep you gentlemen prosperous and happy."

The wiki entry says "The transitive use of the verb "rest" in the sense "to keep, cause, to continue, to remain" is typical of 16th to 17th century language.  The phrase "rest you merry" is recorded in the 1540s."

Re the commercialization of Christmas, Tom Lehrer's Christmas Carol always makes me smile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZR3lJobjw " (which includes the line "...God rest ye merry merchants may you make the yuletide pay.") 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 10:26:08 AM by Osgyth »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2016, 10:11:33 AM »



Thank you Osgyth for that insight. Maybe I can just change blīðe into ġesǣliġ. However I still feel that I am floundering on this one.
 
I have really enjoyed translating the carols but God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen seems to be a carol too far. Unless someone can sort it out quickly I think that I will post rest of it before the end of the week so that I can move on.

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2016, 02:41:54 PM »
Right, well on Sunday afternoon I got a second clear run at sorting through my notes-and-that from Old English Syntax by Bruce Mitchell. 

First and foremost I have now a little supplement to my last Crimbo word hunt. I found four more ‘Marians’, one on line 774 of Elene that goes ond þurh Marian in middangeard, another in the Blickling Homilies on þære halgan Marian hus on þæt þe heo hie inne reste, and a third in Ælfric’s homilies þæt his clæne lif þæs clænan mædenes Marian gymde.  The fourth is also from the Blickling Homilies and also appears to be a nominative, Ic þe halsige nu, Drihten, for þinre þeowene, Sancta Marian... so the -ian would seem to be normative. 

Famous last words...   

None of these exemplars have diacritics as the only shortcoming of Bruce Mitchell’s Old English Syntax is that it doesn’t use any.

There’s two ‘Galilees’, both in Ælfric’s homilies, only one is in the dative ic eow eft gamete on Galileiscum earde, the other is an adjective Ge Galileisce weras.  The bad news is I’ve photocopied a page, here, I’d already written out by hand. ::) Grr!

I found two more ‘Davids’ in the Pastoral Care, both with a U Se ilca Dauid þe forbær þæt he þone kyning ne yfelode... Se ilca Dauid...

There’s three ‘Stephanus’ -es from another of Ælfric’s homilies, þurh Stephanus slege, all spelt the same.  But was Boxing Day also the Feast of Stephen before 1066, I wonder?  I’ve just realised I didn’t check for my kiddies’ book, and my characters go on a hunt “in honour of St Stephen” that day.

There’s a Bethleem in another. Mitchell gives only references like “ÆCHom i. 34.14” and I didn’t copy the page that explains them, so I can’t always reference these exemplars any better. 

There was many a Crist, Herodes a few times all in the singular and an Israhela or two, plus one Hierusalem from the Paris Psalter.  However, there is one Herodus not in a Latin quote but the Chronicle, Her swealt Herodus from him selfum ofstidoc, end of photocopy.   



The other thing is I did not ( repeat not) get the idea that separating  multiple objects was a fixed rule from Bruce Mitchell’s Old English Syntax after all.  In fact, Mitchell has this to say:


“C. THE SPLITTING OF GROUPS

“§1464. Here we are concerned with groups joined by conjunctions such as MnE ‘Tom and Jack and all the boys came’, ‘Tom came, and Jack and all the boys’ and ‘Then came Tom and Jack and all the boys’; on examples like Lch ii. 180.28 do on clað, ofersmit mid ele lege on þone magan, see §1576. These three patterns all appear in OE.  But the ‘split’ construction seen in the second is much more common than in MnE, partly no doubt because of the variety of element order possible there, but even more ( in my opinion) because of a dislike of ‘heavy’ groups; see below.  The split element can be said to be essential to the meaning, but not for the grammar, of the sentence. As Biswas ( Journal of the University of Gauhati, 26-7, no. 1 ( 1975-6), 75) says, it ‘may be withdrawn without affecting the structure as a whole or dissolving it. In fact, the split elements are semantic components only.’  On examples like BlHom 91.32 blodig wolcen mycel see §169.

“§1465. Such splitting is most frequent with the conjunctions and either alone, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 554.7 Ðu yfela ðeowa and sleac, or with samod or eac, e.g. ÆCHom i. 490.28 Ure Drihten ferde [ to probably, but this photocopy’s dark in the gutter] sumere byrig... and his gingran samod...

“§1466. When the divided group serves as a subject, complement, or direct object, of its clause, the separation can be by a verb ( group) alone, e.g. ÆCHom i. 62.31 ... eower mod is awend and eower andwlita; by an infinitive, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 462.2 ... þæt he ne mæg [ his probably, but it’s in the gutter again] gytsunge ðeowian, and Criste samod; by a participle, e.g. ÆCHom [ Gutter again!] 202.21... wearð micel ðunor gehyred and stemn; or by a verb and other elements, e.g. ÆCHom i. 334.6 ... þæt heora bliss ðe [ possibly mara but it’s too dark to be sure] sy, and lufu to heora Drihtne. With adjectives and genitives, the separation can be by noun alone, eg. ÆCHom ii. 554.7 ( §1465) and ÆCHom i. 346.14 Godes lufu and manna, or by a noun and other elements, e.g. ÆCHom ii. 354.21 Maran cyle ic geseah and [ something -yrsan] and ÆCHom ii. 446.5 ... ure andgit and eac swiðor þæra [ here we go again, I think it’s engelæredra. Luckily the rest of this paragraph is about prepositional groups] .... 

“§1465. But, as I have already said, the split construction is only one of three possibilities.  We find all the elements of a subject grouped together before a verb in ÆCHom i. 434.24 ... þæt seo cwen Triphonia and Decius dohtor Cyrilla to Cristes geleafan... gebogene waeron and ÆCHom i. 118.23 Se frumsceapena man and eall his [ offspring by the look of it] wearð adræfed of neorxena wanges myrhðe .... All the elements are groups together after the verb in ÆCHom i. 18.25 ac sceolde Adam and his ofspring tyman on asettum [ something -man]... and ÆCHom i. 598.30 þas ðrowunge awriton þære ðeode [ something -eostas] and ða ylcan diaconas ðe hit eal gesawon. They are separated in ÆCHom i. 434.18 Soðlice seo cwen Triphonia gesohte ðæs halgan [ something -cerdes] fet Iustines mid biterum tearum, and hire dohtor Cyrilla" end of photocopy.

Somewhere in there, I ween, it is possible to see that Mitchell does not regard detachable noun-phrases as a fixed rule but as a common clarification prompted by Old English sentence structure.

This is what I meant by my grammatical self-confidence going up and down like a whore’s drawers.  The contradictory source was, of course, quite explicit, but I’m tempted to follow Mitchell.  I don’t think I’m completely stupid and if any such rule were set in concrete, I think I’d have noticed it in over thirty years of dabbling on Old English.   


***


Another niggle: how do you say ‘Father Christmas’ in Old English?  If you treat the fæder as a social etc. title analogous to ‘Mother Hubbard’, ‘Maid Marian’ or ‘Sister Sledge’, then it should follow the proper noun, not be part of it: Crístmæsse fæder which seems a bit dull and cumbersome.  Yet if you ‘analyse’ it ( as Stephen Pinker puts it) as part of the proper noun, analogous to ‘Father Time’, ‘Mother Earth’  or ‘Brer Rabbit’... you’re still stuck with Crístmæsse fæder because Old English doesn’t appear to go there, does it?  Yet I’m sure I’ve seen an Ealfæder somewhere ( a synonym for the Judeo-Christian god, if memory serves, if maybe recycled from some Heathen god) and there’s definitely béomódor for a queen bee, so why not Ġéolfæder?  And this is not ( repeat not) the Atheist in me trying to kick Jesus into the grass, I’m just serious about Crístmæsse fæder being a drag.  Remember, this has to work in a carol.

Or can anyone do any better?

( I wonder what Boy George thinks ::) )



« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 02:11:55 PM by Bowerthane »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2016, 09:31:08 PM »
 
It seems that titles follow the name except for saints or when it follows a direct article. I checked for popes in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as papa sort of means father.
So in 595/6 and 601 we Gregorius papa, in 813 we have þæs papan Leon, in 815/6 we have Stephanus papa and in 885 we have se gōda papa Marinus.
 
For St Mary you said that you could only find dative cases. In 656 of the chronicles E  we have the genitive mynstre Sancte Marie ciriċe but there are strange spellings in this entry. In 874 of the chronicles we have the genitive Sancte Marian ciriċan. I use “ċ” as in “A” chronicles it is spelt ciricean. However I believe that it can also pronounced as the hard c. I believe that the nominative singular is Maria. This makes it look like a masculine or neuter weak noun but I think that as above the Latin is is used for the nominative singular. I cannot think of a feminine noun that ends in an “-a”.
 
Another woman in the chronicles whose name ends in an “-a” is Margareta who married King Malcolm III of Scotland. She is mentioned four times in the E chronicles. In 1067 we have the dative tō wīfe Margaretan. In 1093 we have the nominative sēo gōde cwēn Margarita. In 1097 we have the genitive Margarite þǣre cwēnan. In 1100 we have the genitive Margareta þǣre gōda cwǣne. 

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2016, 05:08:42 PM »



I have now translated all of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen. Although I am now moving onto O Come All Ye Faithful, do feel free to comment on God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.
 
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen                                               God Lǣte Þe Ġē Wuniaþ Ġesǣliġe  Burhmenn

God rest ye merry Gentlemen                                                 God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ ġesǣliġe burhmenn
Let nothing you dismay                                                          Ne lǣtaþ nāht ēow swearcaþ
Remember Christ our Saviour                                                 Ġemunaþ Crist ūre Hǣlend
Was born on Christmas day                                                    Wōc on Cristesmæssan dæġe
To save us all from Satan’s power                                           Ūs eall fram Satanes ġewealde tō nerianne
When we were gone astray.                                                    Ðonne wē wandrodon.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
From God our Heavenly Father                                               Fram Gode ūrum Heofonliċan Fæder
A blessed Angel came;                                                           Ġebletsod engel cōm;
And unto certain shepherds                                                   And tō sumum sceaphyrdum
Brought tidings of the same:                                                 Brengedon spell þæs ilcan:
How that in Bethlehem was born                                            Hū þe in Betleheme awōc
The Son of God by Name.                                                      Se Sunu Godes þurh Naman.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames

And when they came to Bethlehem                                        And þā hīe cōmon tō Bethleheme
Where our dear Saviour lay,                                                   Þǣr læġ ūre dēore Hælend,
They found Him in a manger,                                                 Hīe hine fundon in binne,
Where the oxen feed on hay.                                                 Þǣr fēdaþ þā oxan on hīeġe.
His Mother Mary kneeling down,                                            His Mōdor Maria cnēowiġende,
Unto the Lord did pray.                                                          Bæd tō þǣm Dryhtene.
O tidings of comfort and joy,                                                 Lā godspell frōfre and drēames,
Comfort and joy                                                                     Frōfre and drēames                 
O tidings of comfort and joy                                                  Lā godspell frōfre and drēames
 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 12:04:32 PM by David »

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2016, 02:41:52 PM »


Yes, thanks Phylllis and Osgyth.  I see now that “rest ye merry” hasn’t fallen quite so far down the memory hole as I first imagined, since we still say “rest assured”, “rest easy” and just maybe “rest in peace” is another throwback to it, and that “merry gentlemen” is not a noun phrase.

I am a bit puzzled by God lǽte þe ġé wuniaþ blíðe burhmenn David, which strikes me as a bit tautological and surely wuniaþ should be wuniende.

The good news it that, thanks to Bruce Guess Who Mitchell’s Old English Syntax I am now wise to this thing called the hortative.  Seemingly it’s a way of using the subjunctive as a kind of punch-pulling imperative or a stylistic way of achieving the same difference as a vocative ( well, besides going Lá! etc.), commonly, if not necessarily, by beginning the sentence with the main verb and if I can read my own longhand, never mind shorthand.  I’ve definitely got these two exemplars:

Ne yldan we na from dæge to dæge.
Lit: Not let-us-delay we not from day to day.

‘Let us not delay from day to day’.

God us gerihtlæce.
Lit: God us correct.

‘May God correct us’.


So... iff my seory ist korrect one could have:

Wunien God éow blíðe fréan
Lit. Let-rest God you merry, gentlemen

‘God rest ye merry gentlemen’.

Or:

God éow wunien blíðe fréan
Lit: God you let-rest merry, gentlemen.

‘God rest ye merry gentlemen’


Also my Sweet has ‘become dark ( of sun)’ for swearcian or sweorcan, whereas there’s a hiertan for ‘cherish, encourage’ ( and the online Old English Translator adds ‘cheer, be renewed, refreshed’ and ‘revive’) a verbal form of heorte, and Mr Pollington’s Wordcraft gives yrgan for ‘dishearten’ whereas the online Translator has an iergan for ‘dishearten, dismay’.

So for the second line, why not...?

Ne unhierten éow náht as it were ‘May naught dishearten you’

Or...?

Ne yrgen éow náht as it were ‘May nothing dismay you’


You’ll notice I plump for fréan rather than burhmenn.  Again, this is where we fumble in a blanket with our gut feelings etc. but for my money somebody penning a carol in a more status-conscious age than ours didn’t mean ‘gentlemen’ literally, no more than he or the name Cantwarebyrig meant to exclude women and children.  Rather, I feel there’s an edge of flattery-cum-hypercorrect civility in that choice of word, for which fréan suggests itself.  My Sweet seems to imply that burhmenn is closer to ‘citizens’. 

Or not because I’m not pretending there’s a lot in it.  What were your impressions, Phyllis and Osgyth?

Now I’m going to upload this double quick as it’s taken ages and I’ve only considered the first two lines!





David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2016, 04:35:33 PM »



In reply to Bowerthane:-
 
Osgyth’s post persuaded me to plump for ġesæliġ rather than blīðe, see reply 52. It also encouraged me to stick to burhmenn, the prosperous merchants happily making their money.
 
My original idea was “God lǣte eow wunian ġsǣliġ burhmenn”. This gave me the problem of why “ye” was used rather than “you”. To get over that I changed it to the cumbersome “God lǣte þe ġē wuniaþ ġesǣliġ burhmenn”. That is “May God allow that you to remain prosperous burger men”.
 
“Swearcaþ” should have been “sweorcaþ”. I was mixing up the present and past tenses. Sweorcan does mean to grow dark, as in the weather, but also as in your mood i.e. to be troubled. I am also thinking that “lǣtaþ” should be “lǣt”
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 04:37:04 PM by David »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2016, 12:02:16 PM »


This is the first part of Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful. Please note that in God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen I have replaced ġesǣliġ  with ġesǣliġe.
 
Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan

Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan
Joyful and triumphant!                                    Blissiġ and sigorbeorht!
Oh, come ye, oh, come ye to Bethlehem;       Lā, cumaþ ġē, lā, cumaþ ġē tō Bethleheme;
Come and behold him                                     Cumaþ and hine lōciaþ
Born the king of angels:                                 Ġeboren se cyning engla:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Highest, most holy,                                        Hīehst, halgost,
Light of light eternal,                                       Lēoht ēċes lēohtes,
Born of a virgin,                                              Ġeboren fæmnan,
A mortal he comes;                                        In dēaðlicnesse he cymþ;
Son of the Father                                            Sunu þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                   Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2016, 08:22:50 PM »

I have now translated all of Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful
 
Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful                                Lā, Cumaþ, Eall Ġē Trēowġeþoftan

Oh, come, all ye faithful                                  Lā, cumaþ, eall ġē trēowġeþoftan
Joyful and triumphant!                                    Blissiġ and sigorbeorht!
Oh, come ye, oh, come ye to Bethlehem;       Lā, cumaþ ġē, lā, cumaþ ġē tō Bethleheme;
Come and behold him                                     Cumaþ and hine lōciaþ
Born the king of angels:                                 Ġeboren se cyning engla:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Highest, most holy,                                        Hīehst, halgost,
Light of light eternal,                                       Lēoht ēċes lēohtes,
Born of a virgin,                                              Ġeboren fæmnan,
A mortal he comes;                                         In dēaðlicnesse he cymþ;
Son of the Father                                             Sunu þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                   Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                            Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                               Crist se Dryhten.
 
Sing, choirs of angels,                                    Singaþ, choras engla,
Sing in exultation,                                           Singaþ in blissunge,
Sing, all ye citizens of heaven above!              Singaþ, ealla ġe ċeasterware heofones ofer!
Glory to God                                                   Wuldor tō Gode
In the highest:                                                Heahgode:
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
Yea, Lord, we greet thee,                               Ġēa, Dryhten wē þē grētaþ,
Born this happy morning;                              Ġeboren þēs sǣliġa  morgen;
Jesus, to thee be glory given!                         Iesus, man tō þē giefe wuldor!
Word of the Father                                         Word þæs Fæder
Now in flesh appearing!                                  Nū in flǣsce onȳwende!
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Oh, come, let us adore him,                           Lā, cumaþ , wuton blētsian hine,
Christ the Lord.                                              Crist se Dryhten.
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 08:31:37 PM by David »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2016, 04:16:26 PM »




What no comments on Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful. Are you saying that my translation is perfect. You can still comment on it but I must continue.
This is the first part of Once In Royal David’s City.
 
Once In Royal David’s City                             Ġēara In Cyneliċre Dāuides Ċeastre
 
Once in royal David’s city                                Ġēara in cyneliċre Dāuides ċeastre
Stood a lowly cattle shed,                              Niðerliċ scipen stōd,
Where a mother laid her Baby                         Þǣr leġde mōdor Lȳtling
In a manger for His bed:                                In binne for His bedde:
Mary was that mother mild,                            Maria wæs sēo mōdor milde,
Jesus Christ her little Child.                            Iesus Crist hiere lȳtle Ċild.
 
He came down from to earth from heaven,     Hē niðerstāg tō earðe fram heofenone,
Who is God and Lord of all,                             Ðe is God and Drihten ealles,
And his shelter was a stable,                          And his hlēowþ wæs  horsern,
And his cradle was a stall;                              And his cradol wæs  bōsiġ;
With the poor, and mean, and lowly,              Mid þǣm eatmingas, and þearfan, and esnas,
Lived on earth our Saviour holy.                     Ūre hāliġ Hǣlend būde on eorþe.
 
And through all His wondrous childhood        And ġeond eallne His wrǣtliċne cīldhād
He would honour and obey                             Hē wolde ārian and hīersumian
Love and watch the lowly maiden,                  Lufian and wacian þā niðerliċe mægð,
In whose gentle arms he lay:                          In þǣre līðum earmum hē læġ:
Christian children all must be                          Eallu Crīstenu child sculon bēon
Mild, obedient, good as He.                            Milde, ġehīersum and gōd swā Hē.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 04:27:05 PM by David »

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2016, 02:23:05 PM »
Hello again David.  Please do not mistake my recent neglect for lack of interest or appreciation.  Life, the universe, earning a living etc. have led me astray and only now dare I bend my brows back to these forums with some hope of saying anything sensible.

Such as... whilst I suppose there’s nothing wrong with Iesus, man tō þē giefe wuldor! for Jesus, to thee be glory given!, why not Iesus, wes þē giefe wuldor!?

Just a thought.




David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2016, 06:30:50 PM »



Bowerthane, it is good to have you back. People have not been commenting on the carols.
 
The line you commented on was a problem for me. I feel that the abolition of the passive voice was a big mistake. To remedy this old English came up with two constructions for the passive which do the job, but inelegantly. I tend to use one as it was the first I was taught but you tend to go for the other.
 
“Jesus, to thee be glory given!” sounds like an imperative in the passive which is a problem for me. I meant ġiefe to be an imperative but thought it could be a subjunctive if the imperative did not make sense. Unfortunately I think that the imperative is ġief, not ġiefe. I think that in your construction ġiefe should be ġiefen, the past participle.