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Author Topic: Carols  (Read 45724 times)

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2016, 02:34:41 PM »
‘Mr Quibbles’ strikes again: in Once In Royal David’s City did you catch the missing macron over the E in line four, verse one Ofleġde his līðe heafod? And -aha!- it seems you have caught the Y in line three, verse four Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten.  So I'll shut up about that.

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I disagree with “wæs” taking the accusative. I thought that it always took the nominative. Aren’t statements such as “it was me” a modern phenomenon. I thought that the old version was “it was I”.
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You’re quite right David.  Ignore me. 


Having another look at:

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 And he leads his children on                           And he læt forþ his ċild
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made me realise I didn’t spot the missing macron over the E in he, :-[ :-[ :-[ . Also, now that I come to check with my Sweet’s Anglo-Saxon Primer, and cross check with my Old English Grammar by J. and E. Wright, I’m fairly sure it should be And hē lǽdeþ forþ his ċild ( I have to use an acute accent for a macron over ligatures) or And hē lǽdþ forþ his ċild if læt for ‘leads’ was meant to be the third person singular present indicative of lǽdan, ‘leading’.

Yet it also looks as if, like many common verbs, lǽdan has variant forms so læt could be one of the many things you know that I don’t. Can it be conjugated as a strong verb too, or what?


***


( I have not abandoned this thread but life, earning a living, next door’s cat etc. keep fending me forth. I shall try to keep up, ::) .)


« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 02:30:15 PM by Bowerthane »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2016, 03:09:00 PM »



Yes Bowerthane I missed out some macrons
Heafod  should be hēafod, he should be hē and læt should be lǣt.
 
In West Saxon lǣdeþ would be lǣdp which is usually changed to lǣt or lǣtt.
I believe that lǣdan is always weak.
 
I was going to post the first part of the next carol tomorrow but now I might wait a couple of days while you carry on checking what is there.

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2016, 02:28:28 PM »
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I might wait a couple of days while you carry on checking what is there.
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Whoops, I wouldn't count on that David.  I wasn't joking about life etc. blowing me off course, and I try to give this thread full and proper attention when I do get a clear run at it.  And as you've seen , I still get things wrong!

All I can say is that I'll do my best with what time I can find.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 02:31:13 PM by Bowerthane »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #78 on: September 29, 2016, 01:55:49 PM »



This is the first half of It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
 
It Came Upon the Midnight Clear                              Hit Cōm Uppan Þǣre Midniht Scīrre
 
It came upon the midnight clear,                                 Hit cōm uppan þǣre midniht scīrre,
That glorious song of old,                                           Se þrymliċ sang ǣrdaga,
From angels bending near the earth                            Fram englas būgende  ġehende þǣre eorþe
To touch their harps of gold!                                       Hrīnan þāra hearpa goldes!
Peace on the earth, good will to men,                         Sibb in þǣre eorðe, frēod tō mannum,
From heaven’s all gracious king!                                  Fram heofones eallum ārfæstum cyninge!
The world in solemn stillness lay                                 Sēo woruld læġ in dēopre stillnesse
To hear the angels sing.                                              Tō hīeranne þā englas singan.
 
Still through the cloven skies they come                    Ġēn cumaþ hīe ġeond þā ġeclofne heofnas
With peaceful wings unfurled                                     Mid smoltum fiðrum unġefealden
And still their heavenly music floats                           And ġēn flīet hiera heofonisc sōncræft
O'er all the weary world;                                            Ofer eall þone wēriġ middangeard;
Above its sad and lowly plains                                   Bufan his unrōtum and niðerliċum felda
They bend on hovering wing.                                    Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
And ever o'er its Babel sounds                                  And ǣfre ofer his Babelra hlēoð0rum
 The blessed angels sing.                                          Þā ēadiġe englas singaþ.
 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:07:07 PM by David »

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2016, 02:45:58 PM »
_____________________________
And opena wide ūrne heofonlic hām;
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Shouldn’t wide have a macron over the I? ( O Come, O Come, Emmanuel verse four, line two.  I notice you’ve got ‘Isreal’ for ‘Israel’ in the Modern English version, too). 

Back in verse three, line three of Away in a Manger:

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Ac lytel Iesus Dryhten
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It looks as if a macron has gone AWOL from the Y ( and shouldn’t binne take a capital B in the title?).


I have to say I think Away in a Manger works especially well in Old English.






David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2016, 03:30:05 PM »



Bowerthane, thanks for the corrections.
 
I think that the missing macron in wīde was Word doing an automatic correction. That drives me crazy.
 
I often miss the macron in lȳtel. In one of the carols I had to go back and put it several times.

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2016, 02:25:46 PM »

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Word doing an automatic correction. That drives me crazy

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Oooh, tell me about it!



David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2016, 01:02:18 PM »

I have now finished It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
 
It Came Upon the Midnight Clear                              Hit Cōm Uppan Þǣre Midniht Scīrre
 
It came upon the midnight clear,                                Hit cōm uppan þǣre midniht scīrre,
That glorious song of old,                                           Se þrymliċ sang ǣrdaga,
From angels bending near the earth                            Fram englas būgende  ġehende þǣre eorþe
To touch their harps of gold!                                       Hrīnan þāra hearpa goldes!
Peace on the earth, good will to men,                         Sibb in þǣre eorðe, frēod tō mannum,
From heaven’s all gracious king!                                  Fram heofones eallum ārfæstum cyninge!
The world in solemn stillness lay                                  Sēo woruld læġ in dēopre stillnesse
To hear the angels sing.                                              Tō hīeranne þā englas singaþ.
 
Still through the cloven skies they come                    Ġēn cumaþ hīe ġeond þā ġeclofne heofnas
With peaceful wings unfurled                                      Mid smoltum fiðrum unġefealden
And still their heavenly music floats                            And ġēn flīet hiera heofonisc sōncræft
O'er all the weary world;                                             Ofer eall þone wēriġ middangeard;
Above its sad and lowly plains                                    Bufan his unrōtum and niðerliċum felda
They bend on hovering wing.                                     Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
And ever o'er its Babel sounds                                   And ǣfre ofer his Babelra hlēoð0rum
 The blessed angels sing.                                            Þā ēadiġe englas singaþ.
 
Yet with the woes of sin and strife                              Ġīet mid þǣm wēam gyltes and sæce
The world hath suffered long;                                    Middangeard þolode langliċe;
Beneath the angel-strain have rolled                          Beneoðan þǣm engelcynne wealwodon
Two thousand years of wrong;                                  Twā þūsend ġēara wranga;
And man, at war with man, hears not                        And mann, æt wīġe wið menn, ne hīerþ
The love song which they bring:                                Se sang lufe þe hīe brengaþ:
O hush the noise, ye men of strife,                            Lā stillaþ þone hrēam, ġē men sæce,
And hear the angels sing.                                          Þā englas singaþ tō hīeranne.
 
For lo! The days are hastening on,                            For lā! Þā dagas scyndaþ,
By prophet bards foretold,                                        Fram wīteġiendum scōpum foresæġdon,
When, with the ever-circling years,                           Þonne, mid þǣm ā hwearftum ġēara,
Shall come the Age of Gold;                                     Cymþ sēo ieldo goldes;
When peace shall over all the earth                           Ðonne ofer eallre eorðe
Its ancient splendours fling,                                     Frið āsprengþ his wēorðnesse,
 And all the world give back the song                        And eall worulde eftāġiefþ þone sang
 Which now the angels sing.                                      Þe nū singþ þā englas.
                            
 
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 01:10:51 PM by David »

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2016, 02:42:01 PM »
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Hlēoð0rum
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Wossat?

Otherwise: brilliant!  A pleasure to read, with jam on it for :)  me, personally:

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æt wīġe wið menn
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Aha!  Do I take it one CAN render the modern idiom ‘at war’, ‘at peace’, ‘at loggerheads’, ‘at a discount’ etc. into Old English without fear of anachronism?  As you may have begun to suspect, I have tried and failed to nail this one.  I do know how differences between Modern and Old English idioms ( as when speaking a foreign language) can still rain on the parade even when you’ve poured all that time, effort and coffee into getting everything else right. 

Sometimes with far-reaching consequences, like saying Ich bin kalt in German :-[ .

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They bend on hovering wing. Hīe būgan on wandriendum flyhte.
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Ah, now I get it. Nice :P one!




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The moral right of the author to be identified as that mysterious black runestone in 1001: A Saxon Odyssey has been asserted.

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2016, 06:11:53 PM »



Wossat? Nought but O!
 
I just took a chance with “æt wiġe wið menn”. Should we change it to something like “fieht wið menn”
 

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2016, 09:45:42 AM »



I have noticed some possible errors in three of the carols.
 
In verse 4 of Once in Royal David’s City I think that the “ūre” should be changed to “ūres” so that it agrees with “ċildhādes” not with “bisen”.
 
In verse 3 of Joy to the World I think that “bletsung” should be “blētsunga”, the plural.
 
In verse 4 of Upon the Midnight Clear I did not translate “ancient” and I think that ending of wēorðnes might be wrong. So I suggest changing “wēorðnesse” to “ealda  wēorðnessa”.

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2016, 06:11:25 PM »



This is the first half of The Holly and The Ivy.
 
The Holly and The Ivy                                Se Holen and Þæt Īfiġ                                   
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                          Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a blossom,                         Se holen birþ blōstm,
As white as lily flow’r,                                  Swā hwīte swā lilian cropp,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To be our dear Saviour                               Ūre lēof Hǣlend tō bēonne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a berry,                               Se holen birþ beriġ,
As red as any blood,                                    Swā read swā ǣniġ blōd,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To do poor sinners good.                            Hrēowliċe gyltendas bētanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                         And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                   Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                           Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2016, 02:34:36 PM »

Ooh, I’ve been looking forward to The Holly and the Ivy!

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Se holen birþ þone corōna.
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Call me “Mr Pedantically Anti-Classicist” but I couldn’t interest you in:

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Se holen birþ þone hēafodbēag.
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by any chance? More Christmassy?

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blīre
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Wossat, if it isn’t a typo for blīþe?


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And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
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I’m not getting at līðe but why not swēte?


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in þǣm chore
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Ah, let me guess. You had a hell of time trying to find a simple noun for ‘choir’ too, right? It’s a pity we’re stuck with the Greek loan-word but that’s the best I could do, too.



David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2016, 03:39:11 PM »
Thanks for doing the checking Bowerthane.
 
Hēafodbēag sounds more Anglo-Saxon, it was just that corona was easier for me to say and sing.
 
Yes blīre should have been blīþe – I must have been very tired.
 
I tend to prefer swēte for taste and līðe for feeling, but I do not mind changing it.
 
You are right about chore. Would you pronounce it ċore?

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2016, 01:37:43 PM »
____________________________________________
Should we change it to something like “fieht wið menn”
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Ooh, my opinion would be a treacherous gift here, David.  All I can say is I’d stick with your present wording unless refuted, if only because one of my rules is ‘if in doubt, side with the wordsmith’s choice of word’. 

Bosworth and Toller is irksomely brief about æt though it gives this sample Æt orwénum lífe translating in extremitate vitae which, arguably, addresses æt to a condition or state of being.  However, the really good news is that Mr Clever here, developing the habit of diving in the deep end in the face of such needling quibbles and hunting through his Anglo-Saxon Reader and the like failing to find exemplars, a guideline or at least something plausibly similar... had overlooked the entry in his basic Sweet’s Anglo-Saxon Primer where it had “specifying action wurdon æt sprǽċe ‘talked together’.” all along.

So, er... guess who feels a :-[ bit of a Silly Billy?

( All the same, I’d be happiest of all if ġesíþas reading this who know Old English better than either of us offered an opinion, he said ;) hinting.)



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The moral right of the author to be identified by the sign of the victory of the Holy Rood, owing to his ignorance of letters, has been asserted.