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Author Topic: Carols  (Read 45726 times)

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2016, 03:13:15 PM »



O.K. I have changed it back to “æt wiġe wið menn”

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2016, 05:11:11 PM »



I have now finished translating The Holly and The Ivy.
 
The Holly and The Ivy                                Se Holen and Þæt Īfiġ                                   
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                         Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                 Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                         Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a blossom,                         Se holen birþ blōstm,
As white as lily flow’r,                                 Swā hwīte swā lilian cropp,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To be our dear Saviour                               Ūre lēof Hǣlend tō bēonne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a berry,                               Se holen birþ beriġ,
As red as any blood,                                   Swā read swā ǣniġ blōd,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
To do poor sinners good.                            Hrēowliċe gyltendas bētanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                               Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                         And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                   Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                           Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a prickle,                             Se holen birþ pīl,
As sharp as any thorn,                                Swā scearp swā ǣniġ þorn,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,             And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
On Christmas Day in the morn.                  On Midwintres Dæġ in þǣm morgene.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly bears a bark,                               Se holen birþ rind,
As bitter as the gall,                                   Swā biter swā se ġealla,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,            And Maria cenþ līðe Iesus Crist,
For to redeem us all.                                  For ealle ūs tō ālīesanne.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 
The holly and the ivy                                   Se holen and þæt īfiġ 
When they are both full grown,                   Þonne hīe begen full ġegrowen,
Of all trees that are in the wood,                 Ealla trēowa þe sind in þǣm wealda,
The holly bears the crown.                          Se holen birþ þone corōna.
 
O, the rising of the sun,                              Lā, se ūpgang sunnan,
And the running of the deer                        And sēo ærning þæs hēorotes
The playing of the merry organ,                  Se glēowcræft þǣre blīre orgelan,
Sweet singing in the choir.                          Swētswēġe drēamnes in þǣm chore.
 

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2016, 03:09:26 PM »

I have translated the first half of O Little Town Of Bethlehem.
 
O Little Town Of Bethlehem                                                 Lā Lȳtel Ċeaster Bethlehemes
 
O little town of Bethlehem                                                   Lā lȳtel ċeaster Bethlehemes
How still we see thee lie!                                                     Hū stille wē sēoþ þē licgan!
 Above thy deep and dreamless sleep                                Bufan þīnum dēopan and swefenlēasan slǣpe
 The silent stars go by;                                                        Þā swīgan steorran belēoraþ;

 Yet in thy dark streets shineth                                            Swāðēah in þīnum deorcum strǣtum scīnþ
 The everlasting Light;                                                        Þæt ēċeliċ lēoht;
 The hopes and fears of all the years                                   Þā tōhopan and eġas ealla þāra ġearas
 Are met in thee tonight.                                                     Mētaþ in þē þēos niht.
 
 For Christ is born of Mary,                                                 For Christ is ācenned of Marian,
 And gathered all above,                                                     And eall gadrodon bufan,
 While mortals sleep, the angels keep                                 Þenden slǣpþ feorhcyn, þā englas habbað
 Their watch of wondering love.                                          Þāra wæcce wundorliċe lufe.
 O morning stars, together                                                 Lā morgenliċe steorran, samod
 Proclaim the holy birth                                                       Ābēodaþ þā hāliġe ācennednesse
 And praises sing to God, the King,                                    And singaþ lofu tō Gode, þǣm cyninge,
 And peace to men on earth.                                              And sib tō men on middanġearde.
 
 
 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 03:12:02 PM by David »

Phyllis

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Re: Carols
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2016, 02:25:39 PM »
Eala David!

I know you will be able to explain, but here are some questions :)

Can I ask why Bethlehemes is genitive? I know the ME is "of Bethlehem" but is it possessive? I understand it as "named Bethlehem" and I do find genitive can confuse me...

I really like "Þā tōhopan and eġas ealla þāra ġearas" - nice rhythm

In verse 2, should "Christ" be "Crist"? Or is it an alternate spelling?

Also, "And sib tō men on middanġearde" - should it be "monnum"?

Sorry if I'm being slow

Wes hal
Phyllis


Phyllis

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2016, 06:11:08 PM »



Phyllis, do not feel intimidated by me. Basically I was making mistakes so thank you for pointing them out.
 
I do not understand why we have “of Bethlehem” in the modern English so I just took a chance on the genitive.
 
I think the “h” in Crist was WORD correcting my spelling but it might just have been a slip.
 
You are correct in saying that men should be monnum , though I would use mannum. I think I just put the modern English word in by mistake. So I probably did the same with “Crist”
 
I have no idea why ġegaderung changed the font after a few lines.

Phyllis

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Re: Carols
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2016, 12:46:53 PM »
Don't worry, David. I'm not intimidated as such, just aware that you know so much more than I do so I assume I am mistaken!

That old spell-checker is a pain, isn't it? We had another classic this weekend - "Sutton Who" turned up on a handout! ;D

Wes hal
Phyllis
Phyllis

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2016, 11:40:51 AM »
 
This is the first half of see amid the winter’s snow.
 
See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 Born for us on Earth below,                                       Wæcnaþ for ūs on eorðe niðer,
 See, the tender Lamb appears,                                  Sēoþ, þæt nīwerne lamb ætiweþ,
 Promised from eternal years.                                     Behātte of ēċum ġēarum.
 
 
Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                  Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                       Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                      Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Lo, within a manger lies                                              Lā, innan binne liþ
 He who built the starry skies;                                    Hē þe timbrode þā āstyrreda lyfta;
 He who, throned in height sublime,                           Hē þe, ġehālgod in hēanesse ūpliċe,
 Sits among the cherubim.                                         Sitt betwēonan þǣm ceruphīne.
 
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                    Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                  Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                       Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                      Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
 Say, ye holy shepherds, say,                                     Secgaþ, ġē hāliġe scēaphierdas, secgaþ,
 What your joyful news today;                                  Þe ēower blīðe spell tōdæġ;

 Wherefore have ye left your sheep                             Forhwȳ lǣfdon ġē ēower scēap
 On the lonely mountain steep?                                  On þǣm annan clifiġan munte?
 
 
 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 11:43:31 AM by David »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2016, 03:43:56 PM »


I am still not happy with “God rest ye merry gentlemen”.  It just cannot be “ye” and in trying to accommodate that I came up with a very clumsy construction. I have decided that either
1. “ye” should be you but they thought “Didn’t they use ye for you in the old days”
2. “ye” stands for the where they used to use a “y” for “þ” or “ð”.
 
As they use “you” in the next line I have gone for “1” giving “God ēow lǣte ġesǣliġe burhmenn”. If the explanation is “2” my translation would be “God lǣte þā ġesǣliġe burhmenn”.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 03:48:15 PM by David »

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2016, 12:55:51 PM »
I have now finished translating See Amid the Winter’s Snow

See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 
 
See, amid the winter's snow,                                      Sēoþ, onmiddan þæs wintres snāwe,
 Born for us on Earth below,                                        Wæcnaþ for ūs on eorðe niðer,
 See, the tender Lamb appears,                                   Sēoþ, þæt nīwerne lamb ætiweþ,
 Promised from eternal years.                                      Behātte of ēċum ġēarum.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Lo, within a manger lies                                              Lā, innan binne liþ
 He who built the starry skies;                                     Hē þe timbrode þā āstyrreda lyfta;
 He who, throned in height sublime,                            Hē þe, ġehālgod in hēanesse ūpliċe,
 Sits among the cherubim.                                          Sitt betwēonan þǣm ceruphīne.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Say, ye holy shepherds, say,                                      Secgaþ, ġē hāliġe scēaphierdas, secgaþ,
 What your joyful news today;                                     Þe ēower blīðe spell tōdæġ;
 Wherefore have ye left your sheep                              Forhwȳ lǣfdon ġē ēower scēap
 On the lonely mountain steep?                                   On þǣm annan clifiġan munte?
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
“As we watched at dead of night,                               “Swā wacodon wē onmiddan nihte,
 Lo, we saw a wondrous light:                                     Lā, wē lōcodon wrǣtliċ  leoht:
 Angels singing ‘Peace On Earth’                                  Englas singaþ ‘Frið on Middanġeard’
 Told us of the Saviour's birth.”                                    Secgaþ ūs be þæs Hǣlendes  ācennednesse.”
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Sacred Infant, all divine,                                             Ġehālgod Lytling, eall godcund,
 What a tender love was Thine,                                    Þe biliwit lufu wæs þīn,
 Thus to come from highest bliss                                 Þus fram hīehst bliss tō dūne
 Down to such a world as this.                                     Þylcre worulde swā þisre cuman.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 
Teach, O teach us, Holy Child,                                    Tǣċe, lā ūs tǣċe, Hāliġ Ċild, 
 By Thy face so meek and mild,                                    Be Þīnum nebwlite swā manswǣsum and milde,
 Teach us to resemble Thee,                                        Tǣċe ūs Þe æfterhyriġan,
 In Thy sweet humility.                                                 In Þǣre līðan eaþmōdnesse.
 Hail, thou ever blessed morn,                                     Welgā, þū ǣfre ēadiġ morgen,
 Hail redemption's happy dawn,                                   Welgā ālȳsednesse blīðemōd ǣrmorgen,
 Sing through all Jerusalem,                                        Singaþ þurh eall Jerusaleme,
 Christ is born in Bethlehem.                                       Crist wæcnaþ in Bethleheme.
 

Bowerthane

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Re: Carols
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2016, 03:09:58 PM »

I’m not getting at ǽrmorgen David, but was their any special reason you preferred it to dagung?

Aha! So ceruphīne did exist as a loan word into Old English? Couldn’t trouble you for a source for that, by any chance?  I think the Hebrew original is keruvim, k’rūvīm or something else, but it has cognates in older, dead Semitic languages we only know from cuneiform ( or wedgehand, if you want an English word for it). 

If memory serves, ‘cherub’ is one of the most ancient words in contemporary use. 


David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2016, 05:05:32 PM »


“Dagung” or “ǣrmorgen” – it doesn’t really matter to me. I just thought that “ǣrmorgen” was more self-descriptive.
 
 You had me scurrying through my books for “ceruphīne”. I knew that in an earlier carol I struggled with “cherubim” and “seraphim” and later I was chuffed when I came across “ceruphīn”. The problem was that I could not remember where I saw it. I thought it was probably when I was reading about loan words into West Germanic as these contained several religious words but not “cherubim”. I finally found it in Clark Hall’s dictionary. He gives the source as EL 750.  It appears that that is “the poem of Elene”.


I took it to be a collective noun so used the dative singular ending "-e". Should I have used the dative plural ending "-um"?
 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 05:08:53 PM by David »

Linden

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Re: Carols
« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2016, 07:25:07 PM »

Aha! So ceruphīne did exist as a loan word into Old English? Couldn’t trouble you for a source for that, by any chance?  I think the Hebrew original is keruvim, k’rūvīm or something else, but it has cognates in older, dead Semitic languages we only know from cuneiform ( or wedgehand, if you want an English word for it). 


These are the lines (743-755a) of Elene

þara sint IIII         þe on flihte a
þa þegnunge         þrymme beweotigaþ
fore onsyne         eces deman,
singallice         singaþ in wuldre
hædrum stefnum         heofoncininges lof,
woða wlitegaste,         ond þas word cweðaþ
clænum stefnum,         (þam is ceruphin nama):
'Halig is se halga         heahengla god,
weoroda wealdend!         Is ðæs wuldres ful
heofun ond eorðe         ond eall heahmægen,
tire getacnod.'         Syndon tu on þam,
sigorcynn on swegle,         þe man seraphin
be naman hateð.   

Both ceruphin and seraphin are plural nouns.   They could have arrived in OE via Greek and Latin from the original Hebrew.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 07:43:21 PM by Linden »
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David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2016, 08:29:21 PM »



Thank you for showing us that, Linden.
 
It seems to be West Saxon but with other influences. I did struggle with the language. However I decided that “þam is ceruphim nama” meant “whose name is Cherubim”. The use of is, rather than sind or even sint or syndon, suggests a collective noun rather than a plural. So I think that the only change I would make to “ceruphīne” is to change the “c” into “ċ” as we get a “ch” sound in the modern English and the “c” is next to an “e”.

David

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Re: Carols
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2017, 10:43:40 PM »


David Jones has posted all fourteen carols on the website. To find them go to the home page and click on Education. Then click on Fourteen Carols for Christmas. Then click on Fourteen Carols for Christmas that appears on the left.


Alternatively click on the link below.


http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Fourteen-Carols-for-Christmas.pdf