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Author Topic: The Pied Piper of Hamelin  (Read 22232 times)

Linden

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2017, 04:23:13 PM »
There is no occurrence of 'swa gif' anywhere within the entire corpus of Old English poetry.  There are many occurrences of swilce/swylce with the meaning 'as if'.  I don't see why the Anglo-Saxons would need to use the clumsier 'swa gif' if they already had the word 'swilce' covering that meaning.  If you are really determined to use 'swa' then you can use it as an adverbial conjunction meaning 'as if' by using the subjunctive in the clause that follows it but not with 'gif' - the 'gif' sense is provided by the subjunctive.  See s.v. swa in Bosworth and Toller under V (3).
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David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2017, 05:28:30 PM »
I still have not found “swilce” meaning “as if” but poetry is not my thing. It looks as though I should switch  to “swilce”.

Linden

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2017, 05:57:52 PM »
Try the  very first line of Wulf and Eadwacer  ' leodum is minum swylce him mon lac gife' - to my people it is as if someone gives them a gift.

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David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2017, 09:28:28 PM »
Well done Linden! Does “swilċe” always take the subjunctive when meaning “as if” – a speculative idea?
 
I find this poem completely opaque and I cannot make sense of many of the lines. This line is fairly straight forward apart from the crazy word order and omitting the subject and preposition which is not uncommon in poetry. I think that the natural word order would be
“Mīnum lēodum is swylċe ġife mon him lāc”. I might translate it as “Among my people this is as though someone gives them a gift.”


However, I think that your translation is as good as any. It all depends on how it continues. Given the next line maybe it should be
"To my people it is as if he is given as to them as a gift".
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 11:01:41 AM by David »

Linden

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2017, 11:21:49 AM »
............. Does “swilċe” always take the subjunctive when meaning “as if” – a speculative idea?
 ............................................................................
That is what I have already stated - if you use 'swilce' with a subsequent clause in the subjunctive then the 'swilce' takes the value of 'as' or 'like' and the use of the subjunctive gives the 'if'.

This 'as if' usage of 'swilce' is clearly stated in the Bosworth and Toller dictionary which is available on-line at this link.

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0956.html

 Just look at the entry on this page for 'swilce' on page 956 under the sub-entries generally labelled IV for examples.
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David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2017, 08:38:25 AM »
 
The responses to the last post was encouraging and I learned about “as if”. Verses 10 and 11 were quite short so I have put them together.


The Piper's face fell, and he cried.                                Þæs pīperes andwlita fēoll, and hē clipode.
 “No trifling! I can't wait, beside!                                  Ne strӯndaþ tīman! Iċ ne mæġ bīdan, ēac!
 I've promised to visit by dinner-time                           Iċ behēot Bagdad be swǣsendum nēosan
 Baghdad, and accept the prime                                   And þicge ærgōd
 Of the Head-Cook's pottage, all he's rich in,                Ealdorcōces syflinge, in ealle þe hē is weliġ,
 For having left, in the Caliph's kitchen,                        For ālǣtan, in Caliphes cyċenan,
 Of a nest of scorpions no survivor:                             Of neste tæglstingena nān  belīfend:
 With him I proved no bargain-driver,                           Mid him iċ āfandode ānstæc bēon,
 With you, don't think I'll bate a stiver!                         Mid ēow, ne þenċaþ þe oftēo pening!
And folks who put me in a passion                              And folc þe mē ġebylge
 May find me pipe after another fashion.''                    Finden þe iċ pīpie oðerre wīsan folgian.”
 
 “How?” cried the Mayor, “d’ye think I brook              “Humeta?” clipode se Burgealdor, “hyġst þū þe iċ þafie
Being worse treated than a Cook?                              Drēogende wiersa þonne Cōc?
Insulted by a lazy ribald                                              Bismerode of īdelgeornum  ungeþwǣrum menn
With idle pipe and vesture piebald?                             Mid īdlum pīpan and fāgan ġescierplan? 
You threaten us, fellow? Do your worst,                     Þū  ūs þeowracast, fēolaga? Dēst þīnre wyrst,
Blow your pipe till you burst!”                                    Pīpa þīnre pipe oþ þū birst!”
 

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 05:51:40 PM »
There were some difficult bits to translate in the last two verses and they are probably even greater in this one. Do let me know if you have suggestions.
 
Once more he stept into the street,                                  Eft onġean hē stop on þā strǣt,
 And to his lips again                                                        And tō his smǣrum eft
 Laid his long pipe of smooth straight cane;                     Læġde his langre pīpan smeðre rihtre hrēodgirde;
 And ere he blew three notes (such sweet                        And ǣr hē blēow þrīe swēġas (þylc myrge
 Soft notes as yet musician's cunning                              Smyltliċ swēġas swā ġīet dreamers liste
 Never gave the enraptured air)                                        Nǣfre ġēafon þā glædan lyfte)
 There was a rustling that seemed like a bustling              Hristlung wæs þe wæs swā brastlung,
 Of merry crowds justling at pitching and hustling,          Of blīðum þrēatum scūfaþ ġewilcþ and sweng,
 Small feet were pattering, wooden shoes clattering,       Lӯtle fēt intrepettedon, trēowen scōs hrisodan,
 Little hands clapping and little tongues chattering,         Lӯtla handa plegedon and lӯtla tungan writodon,
 And, like fowls in a farm-yard when barley is scattering, And, swā fugolas in feormehāmes ġeard þonne bēow is āstencende
 Out came the children running.                                       Þā bearn ūtfōron ieran.
 All the little boys and girls,                                              Eall þā lӯtlan cnapan and mæġdu,
 With rosy cheeks and flaxen curls,                                  Mid rōsenum  hlēorum and fealum locum,
 And sparkling eyes and teeth like pearls,                         And ræscettungum ēaġum and meregreotlicum tōþum,
 Tripping and skipping, ran merrily after                           Intrepettedon and hlēopon, urnon blīðelīċe
 The wonderful music with shouting and laughter.           Þǣm wunderfulum sōncræfte mid ċeallunge and hleahtore.
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:53:52 PM by David »

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2017, 09:19:28 AM »
The next verse is long so this is half of it and I’ll post the other half later.
 
The Mayor was dumb, and the Council stood               Se Burgealdor wæs dumb, and þæt Ġield stōd
 As if they were changed into blocks of wood,              Swiċe forscōpen hīe in onhwēawas,
 Unable to move a step, or cry                                    Ne magon āstyrian stæpe, oððe ċirmað
 To the children merrily skipping by,                            Tō þǣm bearnum blīðelīċe hlēopon be him,
 And could only follow with the eye                             And magon ænlīċe æfterfylgan mid þǣm ēagan
 That joyous crowd at the Piper's back.                        Þǣm blīðum þrēatum æt þæs Pīperes bæce.
 But how the Mayor was on the rack,                           Ac hū wæs se Burgealdor on þǣre hengen,
 And the wretched Council's bosoms beat,                    And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,
 As the Piper turned from the High Street                     Swā ċierde se Pīpere fram þǣm Hēahweġe
 To where the Weser roll’d its waters                            Tō þǣr wealwode sēoWeser hiere wæter
 Right in the way of their sons and daughters!              Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra!
 However he turned from South to West,                      Swāðēah ċierde hē fram Sūðum tō Westum,
 And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed,                And tō Koppelberg Hyll his stæpas mynodon,
 And after him the children pressed;                              And æfter him þā bearn þrungon;
 Great was the joy in every breast.                                Miċel wæs sēo blīðnes in ǣlcum bōsme.
 “He never can cross that mighty top!                           Hē nǣfre mæġ oferfēran þone mihtiġne cnæp!
 He's forced to let the piping drop,                                Hit hine ġenӯt hwistlung oflinnan,
 And we shall see our children stop!''                           And wē scēawiaþ ūre bearn healtian!”
 When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side,             Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan,
 A wondrous
portal opened wide,                                Wrǣtlīċ port ġerӯmþ wide,
 As if a
cavern was suddenly hollowed;                       Swilċe wæs samnunga hol āholod;
 And the Piper advanced and the children followed,   And se Pīpere forþstōp and þā bearn f
olgodon,
 And when all were in to the very last,                        And þā wǣron eall innan tō þǣre endelāfe,
 The door in the mountain-side shut fast.                    Sēo duru in þǣm muntes sidan betӯnde fæste.
 
 

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2017, 09:58:12 AM »
This is the whole verse of the one I tried to post last time.
 
The Mayor was dumb, and the Council stood                Se Burgealdor wæs dumb, and þæt Ġield stōd
 As if they were changed into blocks of wood,               Swiċe forscōpen hīe in onhwēawas,
 Unable to move a step, or cry                                     Ne magon āstyrian stæpe, oððe ċirmað
 To the children merrily skipping by,                             Tō þǣm bearnum blīðelīċe hlēopon be him,
 And could only follow with the eye                              And magon ænlīċe æfterfylgan mid þǣm ēagan
 That joyous crowd at the Piper's back.                        Þǣm blīðum þrēatum æt þæs Pīperes bæce.
 But how the Mayor was on the rack,                           Ac hū wæs se Burgealdor on þǣre hengen,
 And the wretched Council's bosoms beat,                    And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,
 As the Piper turned from the High Street                    Swā ċierde se Pīpere fram þǣm Hēahweġe
 To where the Weser roll’d its waters                           Tō þǣr wealwode sēoWeser hiere wæter
 Right in the way of their sons and daughters!             Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra!
 However he turned from South to West,                     Swāðēah ċierde hē fram Sūðum tō Westum,
And to Koppelberg Hill his steps addressed,                 And tō Koppelberg Hyll his stæpas mynodon,
 And after him the children pressed;                            And æfter him þā bearn þrungon;
 Great was the joy in every breast.                              Miċel wæs sēo blīðnes in ǣlcum bōsme.
 “He never can cross that mighty top!                          Hē nǣfre mæġ oferfēran þone mihtiġne cnæp!
 He's forced to let the piping drop,                               Hit hine ġenӯt hwistlung oflinnan,
 And we shall see our children stop!''                           And wē scēawiaþ ūre bearn healtian!”
 When, lo, as they reached the mountain-side,             Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan,
 A wondrous portal opened wide,                                Wrǣtlīċ port ġerӯmþ wide,
 As if a cavern was suddenly hollowed;                        Swilċe wæs samnunga hol āholod;
 And the Piper advanced and the children followed,      And se Pīpere forþstōp and þā bearn folgodon,
 And when all were in to the very last,                        And þā wǣron eall innan tō þǣre endelāfe,
 The door in the mountain-side shut fast.                    Sēo duru in þǣm muntes sidan betӯnde fæste.
 Did I say, all? No! One was lame,                              Sæġde iċ, eall? Nese! Ān wæs lama,
 And could not dance the whole of the way;                And ne meahte þæt ful fær intrepettan;
 And in after years, if you would blame                       And in æfterrum ġēarum, ġif man leahtrode
 His sadness, he was used to say, --                           His sāriġnes, hē cwæðe, --
 “It's dull in our town since my playmates left!            Ūre burg is unglæd siððan mine plegmæccas sīðode!
 I can't forget that I'm bereft                                     Iċ ne mæġ forġietan þe iċ eom lēas   
Of all the pleasant sights they see,                            Ealla wynsuma ġesiht þe hīe sēoþ,
 Which the Piper also promised me.                           Þe se Pīpere ēac mē behēt.
 For he led us, he said, to a joyous land,                    Forþӯ lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ, tō lustbǣrum lande,
 Joining the town and just at hand,                            Ġeðēodan þone burg and þǣr æt hande,
 Where waters gushed and fruit-trees grew,               Þǣr wæter guton and æppleltrēow wēoxon.
 And flowers put forth a fairer hue,                            And blōstman forðdydon fægerre hīw,
 And everything was strange and new;                      And ǣlcuht wæs elelendisc and nīwe;
 The sparrows were brighter than peacocks here,       Þā spearwan wǣron beorhtran þonne pawan hēr,
 And their dogs outran our fallow deer,                      And hiera hundas forurnon ūre hēorotas,
 And honey-bees had lost their stings,                       And hunig-bēon forluson hiera stingas;
 And horses were born with eagles' wings;                 And hors wæcnede mid earna fiðru;
 And just as I became assured                                  And swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed
 My lame foot would be speedily cured,                      Þe mīn healt fōt bēo hwætlīċe ġebēted,
 The music stopped and I stood still,                          Se sōncræft endede and iċ ġestedigod,
 And found myself outside the hill,                             And onfand þe iċ wæs wiðūtan  þǣm hylle,
 Left alone against my will,                                       Lǣten ān unþances,
 To go now limping as before,                                    Fēran nū hinciende swā ǣr,
 And never hear of that country more!''                      And nǣfre hieran mā be þǣm lande!”
 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:01:48 AM by David »

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2017, 09:01:12 AM »
Verse 14 is another long one so here is the first half.
 
Alas, alas for Hamelin!                                           Ēala, wā for Hameline!
 There came into many a burgher's pate                   Incōm on manig burgfolces heafod
 A text which says that heaven's gate                      Traht þe sæġþ þe heofones ġeat
 Opes to the rich at as easy rate                              Onhlīde for weliġa manna æt seftre mǣðe
 As the needle's eye takes a camel in!                      Swā nǣdle ēaġe āfēhð olfend!
 The mayor sent East, West, North and South,         Se Burgealdor sende Ēast , West, Norð and Sūð,
 To offer the Piper, by word of mouth.                     Þone Pīpere tō bewæġnanne, be worde mūðes.
 Wherever it was men's lot to find him,                   Swā hwǣr swā hit wæs mannes ġifeðe him findan,
 Silver and gold to his heart's content,                    Seolfer and gold oð his heortan fulhealdenre,
 If he'd only return the way he went,                      Ġif hē anā æthweorfe þæt fær þe hē ēode,
 And bring the children behind him.                        And brincð bearn æthindan him.
 But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavour,            Ac þā hīe onġeaton þe sēo hīgung forlēas,
 And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,             And se Pīpere and hopperas ā ēodon,
 They made a decree that lawyers never                 Hīe dōþ bebod þe lahwitan nǣfre
 Should think their records dated duly                    Scolde hycgan cranicas habban wǣr datārum
 If, after the day of the month and year,                 Ġif, æfter þǣm dæġe mōnaþ and ġēares,
 These words did not as well appear,                      Þās word ne onӯwedon efenwel,
 “And so long after what happened here                “And swā lange siððan þe ġelamp hēr
 On the Twenty-second of July,                              On Æterra Līða twēġen and twentiġ,
 Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''                       þrēotiene hundred and siex and hundseofontiġ”
 And the better in memory to fix                            And is betera fæstnian in ġemynd
 The place of the children's last retreat,                  Þone stede þara bearna endemestan smygeles,
 
 

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2017, 09:02:23 AM »
Here is the whole of verse 14
 
Alas, alas for Hamelin!                                           Ēala, wā for Hameline!
 There came into many a burgher's pate                   Incōm on manig burgfolces heafod
 A text which says that heaven's gate                       Traht þe sæġþ þe heofones ġeat
 Opes to the rich at as easy rate                              Onhlīde for weliġa manna æt seftre mǣðe
 As the needle's eye takes a camel in!                      Swā nǣdle ēaġe āfēhð olfend!
 The mayor sent East, West, North and South,          Se Burgealdor sende Ēast , West, Norð and Sūð,
 To offer the Piper, by word of mouth.                      Þone Pīpere tō bewæġnanne, be worde mūðes.
 Wherever it was men's lot to find him,                    Swā hwǣr swā hit wæs mannes ġifeðe him findan,
 Silver and gold to his heart's content,                    Seolfer and gold oð his heortan fulhealdenre,
 If he'd only return the way he went,                      Ġif hē anā æthweorfe þæt fær þe hē ēode,
 And bring the children behind him.                        And brincð bearn æthindan him.
 But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavour,            Ac þā hīe onġeaton þe sēo hīgung forlēas,
 And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,             And se Pīpere and hopperas ā ēodon,
 They made a decree that lawyers never                 Hīe dōþ bebod þe lahwitan nǣfre
 Should think their records dated duly                    Scolde hycgan cranicas habban wǣr datārum
 If, after the day of the month and year,                 Ġif, æfter þǣm dæġe mōnaþ and ġēares,
 These words did not as well appear,                      Þās word ne onӯwedon efenwel,
 “And so long after what happened here                 “And swā lange siððan þe ġelamp hēr
 On the Twenty-second of July,                              On Æterra Līða twēġen and twentiġ,
 Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''                      þrēotiene hundred and siex and hundseofontiġ”
 And the better in memory to fix                           And is betera fæstnian in ġemynd
 The place of the children's last retreat,                 Þone stede þara bearna endemestan smygeles,
 They called it, the Pied Piper's Street --                Hīe hēhton hine, þæs Fāgan Pīperes Strǣt --
 Where any one playing on pipe or tabor,               Þær ġehwā þe plegaþ pīpan oððe tunnebotm,             
 Was sure for the future to lose his labour.             Bēo ġewiss for þǣre forþġesceafte forlēossan his wyrcunge.
 Nor suffered they hostelry or tavern                     Ne man hīe ġesiehþ mid inne ne wīnhūse
 To shock with mirth a street so solemn;                Tawian mid myrgðe strǣt swā dēopum;
 But opposite the place of the cavern                     Ac wiþ þǣm stede þæs holes
 They wrote the story on a column,                       Hīe grafaþ þæt spell on columnan,
 And on the great church-window painted              And mētton on þǣre miclan ċirican ēaġþӯrle.
 The same, to make the world acquainted              Ilca, cӯðan tō worulde
 How their children were stolen away,                    Hū wǣron bestolen hīera bearn,
 And there it stands to this very day.                     And hē stant oð þisne  dæġ
 And I must not omit to say                                  And iċ ne sceal oferhebban cweðan
 That in Transylvania there's a tribe                       Þe in Transyvania is ġeþēode
 Of alien people who ascribe                                 Elelendisces folces þe cnōdeþ
 The outlandish ways and dress.                            Þā ūtlendiscan wīsan and wǣda.
 On which their neighbours lay such stress,            Þe on hiera nēahġebūras lecgaþ þylc weorþ,
 To their fathers and mothers having risen             Tō hiera fædrum and mōdrum hæfen ġeastigen
 Out of some subterraneous prison                        Of sum under foldan cwearterne
 Into which they were trepanned                           Þe in hīe wǣron ġetrept
 Long time ago in a mighty band                           Ġefyrn on mægenfolce
 Out of Hamelin town in Brunswick land,                Of Hamelin burge in EaldSeaxlande,
 But how or why, they don't understand.                Ac hū oððe forhwon, hīe ne onġiett.
 

Bowerthane

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2017, 03:29:01 PM »

I hope you know how much I enjoy and appreciate this, David.


Eallrihte in þǣm weġe hiera suna and dohtra! I’m not getting at in þǣm weġe but I wonder whether you think wiþ weġe would be more characteristic of the Old English?

Forþӯ lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ.  Surely that should be: Forþӯ ūs lǣdede hē, hē cwæþ?


Se sōncræft endede and iċ ġestedigod,  Have you come across ætstandan for ‘stood still’ ( as well as ‘halt’)?  I find it more economical.  That Black Rider ætstód in Woody End, as Frodo ætstód upon Cerin Amroþ, in my translations from The Lord of the Rings.  Also, if you are as picky as I about sticking to the wordsmith’s choice of expression if at all possible, but stoppan does exist as a verb, seemingly.


Þā, lā, swā ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sidan.  Ah, can you actually use swá in this ‘temporal’ sense ( as I’ve developed the habit of calling it) in Old English?  As you may have begun to suspect, swá has given me a lot of trouble.  Trouble that began many years ago when I jauntily set about translating Waltzing Matilda into Old English only to convince myself that the line, “And he sang as he sat as he waited while his billy boiled” had to go, if memory serves And hé sang þá hwíle þe hé sæt þá hwíle þe hé bát þá hwíle þe his bili séaþ

Which you could say kills the hit.   

Yet I am aware only of certain uses of hwíle on its own ( declined thus, as an adverb) as an alternative to modern-day ‘temporal as’.  One that may actually be appropriate as Þā, lā, hwìle ġerǣċaþ hīe þæs muntes sedan as I’ve used it like this twice in my excerpts from The Lord of the Rings but which are not yet fit to be seen, otherwise. 

Otherwise this was why the line: “Do you like what you doth see...?” said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within” had to be “Lícaþ þé hwæt þú siehst...?” sæġde þæt  forspennende ælf-mæġden þá hwíle þe héo fræfele ġetwǽmde þá fyldas hiere pælle tó onhlídanne þá æppledu wuldrum and heolstrig innan and why “Her tiny, pink toes caressed the luxuriant fur of his instep while Frito’s nose sought the warmth of her precious elf-navel” had to be Hiere minan tán and rósġan óleccede þæt  ġeþúfede flíes him fótwelme þá hwíle þe Fritos nosu sóhte þá wearmnesse hiere deórwyrþum ælf-nafelan in my naughty, but hopefully nice attempt upon the Alfred Prize.

So I’d love to be wrong here.  Yet having re-checked and pored through textbooks, samples etc. looking for exemplars and anything else that seems relevant on at least three separate occasions, I fear I am not.  Can Linden shed any light on this, I wonder?

Incidentally, I have reminded myself that you can have ‘so that’ in much the same instrumental sense as in  Modern English, as in hé wæs swìþe fæger swá þæt hé wæs ġeháten Leohtberend.

Oh, and there’s an Old English idiom nú hwíle which covers much the same semantic ground as our ‘just now’ or ‘at the moment’.  Can’t remember where I found it nú hwíle, but I did make sure about it because then, as , I don’t mind getting chuffed as hell at fitting nú hwíle into the crisis moment in my translation of the Sucker Punch script. 

The film reaches its climax when at last the villain, Blue Jones, foils the heroine, Babydoll’s escape attempt.  Babydoll tries to resist as Blue begins to assault her physically, ready to do so sexually.  “Huh, is that it?  Is that all you got? Come here!  Come out,” Blue demands as he slaps Babydoll about. “Did you lose your fight, huh?”  Yet Babydoll clings to enough nerve to fumble for her hidden knife, breathing, “No. I just found it...” before she stabs Blue. 

So now it goes:

   [ Súcelíca séceþ feohtan]
Blue: Éa, is þæt hit?  Wes eall þé hafa swá?  Cume hér!  Cume forþ.  Losedest þú þín feoht? He?
Babydoll:  Ná.  Iċ nú hwíle  fand hit. 
   [ Héo sticaþ Hǽwe]
   

Þǣr wæter guton and æppleltrēow  wēoxon.  There’s a second excrescent L in that æppleltrēow but I can suggest wæstmtréow for ‘fruit-trees’ if you don’t mind getting creative.  I’m not aware of a *wæstmtréow in original Old English, but wæstm is definitely used in appropriate senses. 

Amongst others.  It’s a surprisingly versatile word, I find.


And þæs fēasceaftes Ġieldes bōsmas bēoton,.  Eek, I looked into this too.  So far as I can tell the Old English verb béatan meant little more than physically ‘beat; clash together; tramp, tread on’ as with hammers, cymbals, feet etc.  I could find no instance of it referring to anything like a heartbeat in our period.  I’ve come across other senses that modern ‘beat’ doesn’t fit too, such as a musical beat, but I had to sort this one out for the last line of the third verse that Tom Bombadil breaks out into, in the chapter In the House of Tom Bombadil.  Referring to Goldberry, he chants “Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!”  At the moment I have this as Swéte wæs  hiere  sang þá,  and hiere heorte  wæs slecgettende! because sléan, believe it or not, the word that put the ‘sledge-’ into ‘sledgehammer’, does seem to bear the requisite shade of meaning.

Incidentally, I’ve found that the Old English word for ‘barrow’, beorg is not definitive enough to be sure to hit the meaning ‘grave mound’ actually in Old English.  In my rendition of In the House of Tom Bombadil, where it says of the four hobbits “They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills” etc, it has to be Híe híerdon  ymb  þǽm Micel Morþcrundlas, and þǽm gréne hlæwum, and þá stánhringas  ofer  þǽre dúnum etc. and, near the top of the next paragraph, “Even in the Shire the rumour of the Barrow-wights of the Barrow-downs beyond the Forest had been heard” is taking shape as Efne on þǽre Scíre se hlísa þǽm  Morþcrundel-wihtum þǽm  Morþcrundel-dúnum beġeondan þǽm Wealda ǽrlice wæs ġehierede for fear I could just be talking to myself about the hill-things of the Hill-hills, if not.

Better answers on a méting-ġewrit by all means, because that’s from my Sucker Punch translation, where Sweet Pea says, “Well, send me a postcard from paradise” or Wel, send mé of Folcwange  méting-ġewrit.


hē cwæðe.  Why not hē wolde cweðan for “he was used to say”?  Wasn’t wolde commonly used to express habitual action?  If I were a suspicious person, David, I’d think you planted that one to keep us on our toes!


And swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed. Unless Linden knows better, I think you can have And efne swā wearþ iċ ġetrēowed to hit the same note as modern ‘just as’, here.


Iċ ne mæġ forġietan þe.  I wonder what your ( or anyone’s) opinion was of using the subjunctive in the negative for constructions such as this?  Say Nǽfre forġiete iċ þe etc.?  I feel it’s subtly more elegant, looks more Old Englishy and, when translating modern ‘can’t’ into Old English, allows for the fact that many users of Modern English don’t know or don’t care about the difference between ‘cannot’ and ‘may not’, or commonly mean one by the other.

But that’s just how I feel about it...






___________________________________________________________________________________
The moral right of the author to identify Wing Commander Guy Gibson’s dog as Nigger has been asserted.

 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 03:10:50 PM by Bowerthane »

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2017, 10:36:29 AM »
Bowerthane, I was thinking that there was not much interest.
 
Yes I missed ūs out. I was wondering whether it should come before lædede of after hē.
 
Ætstandan is fine. I was thinking of becoming still rather than being still. I have not seen stoppan but I think that stoppian is transitive, meaning to plug.
 
I think that you might be right about swā, þā hwīle þe is right but it would be nice if we could get away with just hwīle.


For your (heart) beat could you use clæppan, cloccettan or slecgettan.
 
I do not like using wolde for would. It feels 11th century. For me would triggers the subjunctive.
 
For “just as” you can have swā or efne swā.
 
For “can’t forget” you seem to be interpreting as a choice whereas I didn’t.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:47:54 AM by David »

David

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Re: The Pied Piper of Hamelin
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2017, 08:43:04 AM »
Finally we finish up with the last short verse.
 
 
So, Willy, let me and you be wipers                                 Swā, Willy, uton wīpian
Of scores out with all men -- especially pipers!                Of borgum mid eallum mannum –mæst pīperum!
And, whether they pipe us free from rats or from mice,    And, hwæþer hīe pīpiaþ ūs hreddan wið ræta and mūsum
If we've promised them aught, let us keep our promise!   Ġif wē him behēoton aht, uton healdan ūre ġehāt!